"Iraq, an experiment in an American laboratory." surging. purging, and regurgitating - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-24-2008, 07:19 AM   #81
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,324
Local Time: 04:45 PM
Yes war is so romantic, very poor choice of words there

BAGHDAD (AP) - The overall U.S. death toll in Iraq rose to 4,000 after four soldiers were killed in a roadside bombing in Baghdad, a grim milestone that is likely to fuel calls for the withdrawal of American forces as the war enters its sixth year.

The American deaths occurred Sunday, the same day rockets and mortars pounded the U.S.-protected Green Zone in Baghdad and a wave of attacks left at least 61 Iraqis dead nationwide.
__________________

MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 05-26-2008, 09:55 PM   #82
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 12:45 PM
I am still 'kind of' following this war.

OK, I guess I am following this as much or more than many people.

It is difficult, there has been so much propaganda. First from the administration, and the media, misrepresenting how poorly it really was going for so long.

It is difficult to believe how this could really improve, with such a terrible, terrible start and lack of planing, poor execution.

But, lately it does seem like many things are going in the right direction.

Could it be possible that with 5-6 years of a complete cluster-f*ck
- a corner could actually be getting turned? and there really is a light? and there really is "an end of the tunnel'.

I have never bought the bullshit that the "consequences of failure are too great" for us not to stay the course. If it is a losing proposition no matter what, it is better to take the loss 'sooner than later".

But, lately I am thinking all the bullshit that "we have turned a corner", "things are looking up", "there is a way for this to end in the right way". May actually be true.

There is real progress on ending the violence.
I heard a report today, among several others on NPR lately, where the Iraqi people in the street are actually praising Maliki for the restoration to a normalcy.

I have never supported this Bush Administration in anything.

I think this War should not have been fought.

But, I will not let my strong dislike of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld
allow me to want this to end with an Iraqi country that can not succeed, just to spite Bush.

A successful Iraqi government will never justify the way this War began, the way it was prosecuted and the costs in blood and money.
__________________

deep is offline  
Old 05-27-2008, 12:27 PM   #83
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 12:45 PM
Here is another article that is leading me to believe
that there may be "light at the end of the tunnel."

Iraqis losing patience with militiamen - Los Angeles Times
deep is offline  
Old 05-28-2008, 02:59 PM   #84
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 03:45 PM
There is definitely progress. Good progress. Last 2 weeks, without incendent, wich is UNPRECEDENTED!
MadelynIris is offline  
Old 05-29-2008, 05:07 PM   #85
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 04:45 PM
When will politicians ever learn that anything they say is going to show up somewhere they don't want it to?



By the way, that is my Congressman.
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 05-29-2008, 06:41 PM   #86
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 12:45 PM
looks like it would be a "fun" town hall meeting


(are you upset because it got caught on tape?
not because it is true? )
deep is offline  
Old 05-29-2008, 10:10 PM   #87
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 04:45 PM
No, I'm not upset it was caught on tape else I wouldn't have linked it. It is what it is. I'm not surprised. Maybe I would be more outraged if I were surprised. Maybe not. I think most politicians are sociopaths. Just hate it when our sociopaths are so PR inept.
It was kind of refreshing, though, now that I think of it. Yeah, though, maybe there is a part of me screaming at him "You stupid fuck. Lie better." The pragmatist in me in conflict with the purist in me. Increasingly the pragmatist is winning. The purist in me has other battles to fight. I've given this one over to the cynics.

My was cause I'm stuck voting for him in November cause he's running against an even worse political opportunist. The democrats can lose this seat, by the way.

And yes, his townhall meetings are fun.
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-01-2008, 07:37 PM   #88
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:45 AM
This isn't part of the narrative
Quote:
THERE'S BEEN a relative lull in news coverage and debate about Iraq in recent weeks -- which is odd, because May could turn out to have been one of the most important months of the war. While Washington's attention has been fixed elsewhere, military analysts have watched with astonishment as the Iraqi government and army have gained control for the first time of the port city of Basra and the sprawling Baghdad neighborhood of Sadr City, routing the Shiite militias that have ruled them for years and sending key militants scurrying to Iran. At the same time, Iraqi and U.S. forces have pushed forward with a long-promised offensive in Mosul, the last urban refuge of al-Qaeda. So many of its leaders have now been captured or killed that U.S. Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker, renowned for his cautious assessments, said that the terrorists have "never been closer to defeat than they are now."

Iraq passed a turning point last fall when the U.S. counterinsurgency campaign launched in early 2007 produced a dramatic drop in violence and quelled the incipient sectarian war between Sunnis and Shiites. Now, another tipping point may be near, one that sees the Iraqi government and army restoring order in almost all of the country, dispersing both rival militias and the Iranian-trained "special groups" that have used them as cover to wage war against Americans. It is -- of course -- too early to celebrate; though now in disarray, the Mahdi Army of Moqtada al-Sadr could still regroup, and Iran will almost certainly seek to stir up new violence before the U.S. and Iraqi elections this fall. Still, the rapidly improving conditions should allow U.S. commanders to make some welcome adjustments -- and it ought to mandate an already-overdue rethinking by the "this-war-is-lost" caucus in Washington, including Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.).

ad_icon

Gen. David H. Petraeus signaled one adjustment in recent testimony to Congress, saying that he would probably recommend troop reductions in the fall going beyond the ongoing pullback of the five "surge" brigades deployed last year. Gen. Petraeus pointed out that attacks in Iraq hit a four-year low in mid-May and that Iraqi forces were finally taking the lead in combat and on multiple fronts at once -- something that was inconceivable a year ago. As a result the Iraqi government of Nouri al-Maliki now has "unparalleled" public support, as Gen. Petraeus put it, and U.S. casualties are dropping sharply. Eighteen American soldiers died in May, the lowest total of the war and an 86 percent drop from the 126 who died in May 2007.

If the positive trends continue, proponents of withdrawing most U.S. troops, such as Mr. Obama, might be able to responsibly carry out further pullouts next year. Still, the likely Democratic nominee needs a plan for Iraq based on sustaining an improving situation, rather than abandoning a failed enterprise. That will mean tying withdrawals to the evolution of the Iraqi army and government, rather than an arbitrary timetable; Iraq's 2009 elections will be crucial. It also should mean providing enough troops and air power to continue backing up Iraqi army operations such as those in Basra and Sadr City. When Mr. Obama floated his strategy for Iraq last year, the United States appeared doomed to defeat. Now he needs a plan for success.
washingtonpost.com
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-01-2008, 08:31 PM   #89
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 12:45 PM
it has been in here,

since this thread was revived \/

Quote:
Originally Posted by deep on 05-26-2008, 07:55 PM View Post
I am still 'kind of' following this war.

OK, I guess I am following this as much or more than many people.

.....

It is difficult to believe how this could really improve, with such a terrible, terrible start and lack of planing, poor execution.

But, lately it does seem like many things are going in the right direction.

.....

.
deep is offline  
Old 06-01-2008, 08:32 PM   #90
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:45 AM
This thread must have fallen off the radar, like many issues.
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-01-2008, 08:43 PM   #91
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 12:45 PM
Current situation does not fit the narrative for the "preferred" candidate.
deep is offline  
Old 06-01-2008, 08:54 PM   #92
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:45 AM
Only for his base, by November one would hope both candidates can talk about leaving Iraq in their first term without it being purely expedient.
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-25-2008, 05:41 PM   #93
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 09:45 PM
[q]Taking Ownership of Iraq?

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
New York Times (Op-Ed), June 25


Having recently returned from Egypt, I have the Suez Canal on my mind. And looking at Iraq from Cairo, the thought occurred to me that maybe the Iraqis have just crossed the Suez Canal. If so, that’s good news.

What am I talking about? There is no way that Egypt’s President Anwar Sadat could have ever made peace with Israel had he not first launched his lightning strike across the Suez Canal on Yom Kippur, 1973. “The crossing,” as that surprise attack became known in Egyptian lore, was as psychologically important as it was militarily important. It wiped away Egypt’s humiliating loss in the 1967 war and gave Egyptians the dignity and self-confidence to make peace with Israel as military equals. While the military reality was more complex, Egyptians nevertheless felt they had liberated the Sinai themselves.

One of the first things I realized when visiting Iraq after the U.S. invasion was that the very fact that Iraqis did not liberate themselves, but had to be liberated by Americans, was a source of humiliation to them. It’s one reason they never threw flowers. When someone else has to liberate you in your own home, that is humiliating—and humiliation, I believe, is the single-most underestimated force in international relations, especially in the Middle East. That also helps explain why Iraqis initially never took ownership of their governing institutions, like the Coalition Provisional Authority, or C.P.A. They never fought for it. It was handed to them. People have to fight and win their own freedom, and that’s what gives their institutions legitimacy.

What seems to have happened in Iraq in the last few months is that the Iraqi mainstream has finally done some liberating of itself. With the help of the troop surge ordered by President Bush, the mainstream Sunni tribes have liberated themselves from the grip of Al Qaeda in their provinces. And the Shiite mainstream—represented by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and the Iraqi Army—liberated Basra, Amara and Sadr City in Baghdad from both Mahdi Army militiamen and pro-Iranian death squads. We may one day look back on this as Iraq’s real war of liberation. The one we led five years ago didn’t count. And because Iraqis now have their own narrative of self-liberation, it appears to be giving more legitimacy and self-confidence to the Shiite-dominated Iraqi Army and the Maliki regime. It also seems to have emboldened the Sunnis to take part in the next parliamentary elections—after having largely boycotted the last round. The Kurds already liberated themselves and had that self-confidence.

It helped that Al Qaeda and Iran both went too far. I’ve always believed that there is only one good thing about extremists: They don’t know when to stop. Al Qaeda in Iraq went on murderous rampages against any Sunnis who opposed them, severing heads, forcing marriages, mowing down tribal leaders and slaughtering Shiites by the hundreds. Meanwhile, pro-Iranian Shiite extremists tried to impose a Taliban-like order in Basra and Baghdad—from head scarves to bans on liquor—on what is still a mostly secular-oriented Shiite majority. Eventually, this Muslim-on-Muslim oppression seemed to spark the “we’re-not-going-to-take-this-anymore” rage, which prompted both the Sunni and Shiite mainstreams to liberate themselves from their own extremists and, in so doing, actually take ownership of their own country.

Oddly enough, the person who best saw this backlash coming and warned how it could backfire on Al Qaeda was Osama bin Laden’s sidekick Ayman al-Zawahiri. Remember the famous letter dated July 9, 2005, that Zawahiri sent to the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi? Zawahiri warned Zarqawi to stop murdering so many Shiites, and even Sunnis, with his campaign of suicide bombing and kidnapping. “Many of your Muslim admirers amongst the common folk are wondering about your attacks on the Shia,” Zawahiri said in his letter. “The sharpness of this questioning increases when the attacks are on one of their mosques...My opinion is that this matter won’t be acceptable to the Muslim populace, however much you have tried to explain it, and aversion to this will continue...Among the things which the feelings of the Muslim populace who love and support you will never find palatable—also—are the scenes of slaughtering the hostages.”

Zarqawi didn’t take the advice.

But be advised: These parallel wars of self-liberation still don’t amount to a single national unity movement. Civil war could still be in Iraq’s future. Not all Sunnis and Shiites have had their “crossings.” Iraq is miles away from being healthy. And now that Iraq’s Shiite and Sunni communities are taking more responsibility for their own country, you are also going to see an intense power struggle over who dominates within each community. With oil dollars piling up, there is a lot more to fight for. But if we’re lucky, this struggle will play out primarily in the political arena. If we’re not lucky? Well, let’s just hope we’re lucky.[/q]
Friedman has an annoying tendency to seem a bit too impressed by his own insights, but I think he's right about the tendency of great military powers, unaccustomed to holding the short end of the stick, to overlook the importance of owning one's own "liberation struggle," and the poisonousness of feeling repeatedly humiliated.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 06-25-2008, 09:03 PM   #94
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,856
Local Time: 04:45 PM
[q]Friedman has an annoying tendency to seem a bit too impressed by his own insights,[/q]




true, this.
__________________

Irvine511 is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×