IRAN may be next!

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Dreadsox

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U.S. Eyes Pressing Uprising In Iran
Officials Cite Al Qaeda Links, Nuclear Program

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, May 25, 2003; Page A01


The Bush administration, alarmed by intelligence suggesting that al Qaeda operatives in Iran had a role in the May 12 suicide bombings in Saudi Arabia, has suspended once-promising contacts with Iran and appears ready to embrace an aggressive policy of trying to destabilize the Iranian government, administration officials said.

Senior Bush administration officials will meet Tuesday at the White House to discuss the evolving strategy toward the Islamic republic, with Pentagon officials pressing hard for public and private actions that they believe could lead to the toppling of the government through a popular uprising, officials said.

The State Department, which had encouraged some form of engagement with the Iranians, appears inclined to accept such a policy, especially if Iran does not take any visible steps to deal with the suspected al Qaeda operatives before Tuesday, officials said. But State Department officials are concerned that the level of popular discontent there is much lower than Pentagon officials believe, leading to the possibility that U.S. efforts could ultimately discredit reformers in Iran.

In any case, the Saudi Arabia bombings have ended the tentative signs of engagement between Iran and the United States that had emerged during the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.

U.S. and Iranian officials had met periodically to discuss issues of mutual concern, including search-and-rescue missions and the tracking down of al Qaeda operatives. But, after the suicide bombings at three residential compounds in Riyadh, the Bush administration canceled the next planned meeting.

"We're headed down the same path of the last 20 years," one State Department official said. "An inflexible, unimaginative policy of just say no."

U.S. officials have also been deeply concerned about Iran's nuclear weapons program, which has the support of both elected reformers and conservative clerics. The Bush administration has pressed the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog, to issue a critical report next month on Iran's nuclear activities. Officials have sought to convince Russia and China -- two major suppliers of Iran's nuclear power program -- that Iran is determined to possess nuclear weapons, a campaign that one U.S. official said is winning support.

But a major factor in the new stance toward Iran consists of what have been called "very troubling intercepts" before and after the Riyadh attacks, which killed 34 people, including nine suicide bombers. The intercepts suggested that al Qaeda operatives in Iran were involved in the planning of the bombings.

Earlier this week, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld accused Iran of harboring al Qaeda members. "There's no question but that there have been and are today senior al Qaeda leaders in Iran, and they are busy," Rumsfeld said. Iranian officials, however, have vehemently denied that they have granted al Qaeda leaders safe haven in the country.

Until the Saudi bombings, some officials said, Iran had been relatively cooperative on al Qaeda. Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Iran has turned over al Qaeda officials to Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. In talks, U.S. officials had repeatedly warned Iranian officials that if any al Qaeda operatives in Iran are implicated in attacks against Americans, it would have serious consequences for relations between the two countries.

Those talks, however, were held with representatives of Iran's foreign ministry. Other parts of the Iranian government are controlled not by elected reformers, but by conservative mullahs.

A senior administration official who is skeptical of the Pentagon's arguments said most of the al Qaeda members -- fewer than a dozen -- appear to be located in an isolated area of northeastern Iran, near the border with Afghanistan. He described the area as a drug-smuggling terrorist haven that is tolerated by key members of the Revolutionary Guards in part because they skim money off some of the activities there. It is not clear how much control the central Iranian government has over this area, he said.

"I don't think the elected government knows much about it," he said. "Why should you punish the rest of Iran," he asked, just because the government cannot act in this area?

Flynt Leverett, who recently left the White House to join the Brookings Institution's Saban Center for Middle East Policy, said the administration may be taking a gamble. "It is imprudent to assume that the Islamic Republic will collapse like a house of cards in a time frame that is going to be meaningful to us," he said. "What it means is we will end up with an Iran that has nuclear weapons and no dialogue with the United States with regard to our terrorist concerns."

Ever since President Bush labeled Iran last year as part of an "axis of evil" -- along with North Korea and Iraq -- the administration has struggled to define its policy toward the Islamic republic, which terminated relations with the United States after Iran's 1979 revolution. The administration never formally adopted a policy of "regime change," but it also never seriously tried to establish a dialogue.

In July, Bush signaled a harder line when he issued a strongly worded presidential statement in which he praised large pro-democracy street demonstrations in Iran. Administration officials said at the time that they had abandoned any hope of working with President Mohammad Khatami and his reformist allies in the Iranian government, and would turn their attention toward democracy supporters among the Iranian people.

But the prospect of war with Iraq reopened some discreet contacts, which took place under U.N. supervision in Europe. The contacts encouraged some in the State Department to believe that there was an opening for greater cooperation.

In an interview in February with the Los Angeles Times, Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage drew a distinction between the confrontational approach the administration had taken with Iraq and North Korea and the approach it had adopted with Iran. "The axis of evil was a valid comment, [but] I would note there's one dramatic difference between Iran and the other two axes of evil, and that would be its democracy. [And] you approach a democracy differently," Armitage said.

At one of the meetings, in early January, the United States signaled that it would target the Iraq-based camps of the Mujaheddin-e Khalq (MEK), or People's Mujaheddin, a major group opposing the Iranian government.

The MEK soon became caught up in the policy struggle between the State Department and the Pentagon.

After the camps were bombed, the U.S. military arranged a cease-fire with the group, infuriating the Iranians. Some Pentagon officials, impressed by the military discipline and equipment of the thousands of MEK troops, began to envision them as a potential military force for use against Tehran, much like the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.

But the MEK is also listed as a terrorist organization by the State Department. Under pressure from State, the White House earlier this month ordered the Pentagon to disarm the MEK troops -- a decision that was secretly conveyed by U.S. officials to Iranian representatives at a meeting in Geneva on May 3.

Nine days later, the suicide bombers struck in Saudi Arabia.


? 2003 The Washington Post Company
 
Not a shocker. Now that Iraq is old news like Afghanistan, it's time to find another country to deflect from his glaring lack of domestic policy.

Sometimes I wonder if we are unknowingly doing Al-Qaeda's bidding. After all, we are destroying nations that they have equally hated for years (except for Afghanistan), and I wouldn't doubt that they are betting on a popular uprising from these nations' peoples in due time. "Democracy" in Afghanistan and Iraq are nonexistent, and an election would probably yield fundamentalist Islam--Al-Qaeda's goal all along.

Very curious...

Melon
 
Dreadsox said:
The Bush administration, alarmed by intelligence suggesting that al Qaeda operatives in Iran had a role in the May 12 suicide bombings in Saudi Arabia,...

"We're headed down the same path of the last 20 years," one State Department official said. "An inflexible, unimaginative policy of just say no."

U.S. officials have also been deeply concerned about Iran's nuclear weapons program,...

But a major factor in the new stance toward Iran consists of what have been called "very troubling intercepts"...

Earlier this week, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld accused Iran of harboring al Qaeda members.



LMFAO

Brand New You?re Retro
 
not a surprise. we can't find Bin Ladin, we attack Iraq. We can't find the WMDs or Saddam, we attack Iran. I'm sure this is going to completely irradicate all harsh feelings toward the US from everyone living in the Islamic world and make terrorism a thing of the past. yeah. right.
 
Iran has been a potential threat to US security for over two decades now. If they are aiding Al Quada or harboring Al Quada in ways that allow them to regroup and launch more attacks then something has to be done. People here need to take the blinders off for a second and realize that there are some very legitimite security concerns here.

Melon,

"Democracy" in Afghanistan and Iraq are nonexistent, and an election would probably yield fundamentalist Islam--Al-Qaeda's goal all along."

What were Germany and Japan like right after the end of World War II. You can't get democracy through the drive through at BK, it takes time, years, sometimes decades to properly develop. Think Bosnia and Kosovo.
 
I distinctly remember George Bush making some comment about not being into "nation-building" when he was running for office or newly elected. Odd how pretty much everything he promised, he has failed to deliver, or better yet gone and done the complete opposite.
 
sulawesigirl4 said:
I distinctly remember George Bush making some comment about not being into "nation-building" when he was running for office or newly elected. Odd how pretty much everything he promised, he has failed to deliver, or better yet gone and done the complete opposite.

Well, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I sincerely believe that he did not want to. I believe his promise was sincere, but I believe that 9/11 changed the way the President, and his administration view the world. It will be interesting to see if this becomes a campaign issue. I see the commercial with him saying "No nation building".
 
I understand that 9/11 changed a hell of alot of politics. Still, when I read about this Iran stuff, I think "enough is enough". Iran has a very strong, pretty active opposition, unlike Iraq under Saddam. They are strongly pro-democracy and I believe they want a secular state. It's a very different political situation. Hell, I personally know of an Iranian opposition web site. I've written notes to the webmaster! If they want to put this opposition into power I'll be damned if it'll take such drastic steps to pull it off.
 
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This doesn't suprise me in the least. Bush and his allies had this foreign policy planned long before September 11th and it's not suprising that "victories" in Afghanistan and Iraq have given them the confidence to continue with this direction. (I say "victories" because although the military intervention might have been successful, the proposed goal of bringing stability and democracy to those countries are far from being achieved.)

I agree with what verte said about Iranian opposition groups too. Could you possibly post a link to the website you referred to - I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks. :)

*Fizz
 
STING2 said:
Iran has been a potential threat to US security for over two decades now...

something has to be done.

...there are some very legitimite security concerns here.


I?ve heard that somewhere before.

Well, a new world order according to the Washington Consensus takes more than one war.

How you, being a military tactics expert in my eyes, can still compare conflict situations in the new Millenium to the Second World War, is beyond my understanding. But nevermind.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,


"How you, being a military tactics expert in my eyes, can still compare conflict situations in the new Millenium to the Second World War, is beyond my understanding. But nevermind."

It depends what one is comparing. There are situations from thousands of years ago that are still relevant today in certain contexts while somethings from 20 years ago may not be.

But I'm not sure what you were specifically refering to.


"Bush and his allies had this foreign policy planned long before September 11th"

Thats great and part of the reason the policy has been so effective. But its not just the Bush Administration, there have been plans throughout the US government preparing for the possibility of large scale military force against Iraq since the 1991 ceacefire. In light of Iraq's prior violations and obligations that it was failing to meet, to do anything less than be prepared for such operations would be irresponsible and negligent of the US government and intelligence and foreign policy community.
 
STING2 said:
Thats great and part of the reason the policy has been so effective.

So you agree that the breaching of international law has been planned before of Sept. 11th. That?s interesting to those of us, who (contrary to you, as we all know), believe that the Iraq war was illegal in terms of international law.

Do you think the tactics of pre-emptively attacking - as a concrete military activity, not a potential plan in some departments of the Pentagon - were developed before of Sept. 11th?
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

"So you agree that the breaching of international law has been planned before of Sept. 11th. That?s interesting to those of us, who (contrary to you, as we all know), believe that the Iraq war was illegal in terms of international law."

If international law is what you care about, then you would know that in order for the 1991 Gulf War to come to a ceacefire, Iraq was required to agree to a number of conditions. The UN passed resolutions against Iraq under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations which allow the use of force if Iraq fails to comply with the resolutions. Already the UN new ahead of time that there was the strong potential that Saddam would never actually comply with the obligations in the ceacefire and resolutions and that military force would be needed to bring about compliance with the resolutions. That is why the resolutions were passed under Chapter VII rules and not Chapter VI rules which would have ruled out the possibility of using force.

The USA and other member states began planning for the need to enforce international law against Iraq with military force as soon as the first Gulf War ended. It would be
irresponsible and negligent to not do so. It would not be smart to require Iraq to agree to so many different obligations as the UN did but have no means to properly enforce it.

"Do you think the tactics of pre-emptively attacking - as a concrete military activity, not a potential plan in some departments of the Pentagon - were developed before of Sept. 11th?"

The USA has had a pre-emptive military strategy since 1945. Its unfortunate such a strategy did not exist before then.
 
STING2 said:
"Do you think the tactics of pre-emptively attacking - as a concrete military activity, not a potential plan in some departments of the Pentagon - were developed before of Sept. 11th?"

The USA has had a pre-emptive military strategy since 1945. Its unfortunate such a strategy did not exist before then.

Give me an example for when the strategy of pre-emptively attacking was concretely used in the past century. Not against the U.S.S.R., as far as I know.

Wasn?t it close to an pre-emptive attack in the Cuba conflict? Kennedy, remember?
 
Don't you think they shoudl find some WMD's in raq first to justify their invasion rather than just jumping to the next country?


I'm a firm believer that they dynamics in the mid east have to change...and if you need a pretext to do so..I'm fine with that...but until you can prove you weren't just fabricating evidence to go to war I'm going to hold off on rubber stamping any more invasions in the middle east.


(I'll spare people my usual pakistan should be done next rant)
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

I was not talking about when a Pre-emptive strategy was used but simply that one has been in place since 1945. I do not consider the war in Iraq to be a war of pre-emption but simply the long overdue resolution of problems that had persisted for 12 years following the first Gulf War.

Israel pre-empted its Arab enemies in the 1967 war. Cuba was certainly a close one.
 
Arun,

"Don't you think they shoudl find some WMD's in raq first to justify their invasion rather than just jumping to the next country?"

The USA and other member states involved in the current occupation do not have find any WMD to justify the invasion. The invasion itself was authorized because of Iraq's failure to prove that they did not have such weapons. The 1991 Ceacefire agreement and UN resolutions are clear that it is incumbent upon Iraq to prove that they no longer have WMD. Member States are only obligated to insure Iraq does not have WMD. They are not required to find anything.

It is widely known that Iraq had 30,000 Chem/Bio capable shells, thousands of tons of Anthrax and other WMD as of 1998. The inspectors were kicked out that year and when they came back in 2002, Iraq claimed to have destroyed the above WMD but did not provide any evidence to prove they had in fact done that. The failure to do that, is all the justification that was needed to act with military force. Iraq had to either give up the WMD or prove that it destroyed it. If 30,000 Chem/Bio capable shells were destroyed, there would be a lot of metal left around. This stuff does not vanish into thin air.

To some up, the USA and other member states don't need physical evidence or need to prove that Iraq has WMD. That is Iraq's job to show or prove one way or the other. Military action is justified because of Iraq's failure to cooperate and prove it has met its obligations in regards to WMD.
 
Sting,

I wonder if you are familiar with the concept, "It is impossible to prove a negative "?



Such as, "There are no UFOs" "Bigfoot does not exist."
"There are no longer any WMD in Iraq."

When the US said there were still WMD in Iraq.
Reasonable people would like to see proof.
 
STING2 said:
I do not consider the war in Iraq to be a war of pre-emption but simply the long overdue resolution of problems that had persisted for 12 years following the first Gulf War.

Israel pre-empted its Arab enemies in the 1967 war. Cuba was certainly a close one.

Quoting myself from another thread:

"The rationale of anticipatory self-defense has been invoked by Israel to justify attacks against Palestinian camps in Lebanon in 1975. Subsequently, UN Security Council resolutions have condemned this attack while contesting the idea of self-defense where there has been no armed intervention by the "aggressor".

The thesis of anticipatory self-defense is thus not an acceptable principle of international law today, because it is prone to arbitrary interpretation. A preemptive attack on another sovereign nation is counter to established and universally accepted standards of international law. This may help to explain the vehemence of opposition to a preemptive attack, among even our staunchest European allies."
 
STING2 said:
The USA and other member states involved in the current occupation do not have find any WMD to justify the invasion.

To some up, the USA and other member states don't need physical evidence or need to prove that Iraq has WMD. That is Iraq's job to show or prove one way or the other. Military action is justified because of Iraq's failure to cooperate and prove it has met its obligations in regards to WMD.

Quoting STING2 from another thread:

"These resolutions were passed against Iraq because it was felt that Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction was a grave threat to the rest of the region because of its past behavior. Because of its past behavior in regards to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Israel, an attack from Iraq could always be considered imminent.

Therefore if material breech can never be agreed or defined because some UN members are in my opinion blind or for whatever the reason, refuse to see material breech. The use of force can be justified as an act of self defense."
 
Deep,

Sting,

"I wonder if you are familiar with the concept, "It is impossible to prove a negative "?"



"Such as, "There are no UFOs" "Bigfoot does not exist."
"There are no longer any WMD in Iraq.""

"When the US said there were still WMD in Iraq.
Reasonable people would like to see proof."



Its very simple. Even Iraq agreed that it still had 30,000 Chem/Bio cabable shells and thousands of tons of Anthrax in 1998 when the inspectors were forced to leave. Iraq was required to verifiably destroy those weapons. In 2002 when inspectors were let back into Iraq, Iraq had two options.

Option #1, hand over the WMD that they still had in 1998 if it had not been destroyed between 1998 and 2002.

Option #2 If the WMD listed above was destroyed between 1998 and 2002, then Iraq was required to show the evidence of the destruction.

Those are the only two options Iraq had and they did neither. If the Iraq did destroy its WMD, there would be plenty of evidence that inspectors could look at so as to verify that fact. 30,000 Chemical/Bio capable shells is a lot of metal.

The proving the negative analogy does not work in the Iraq case because its already known what Iraq had at one point. Since the remains of destroyed WMD do not vanish into thin air, and WMD still intact can be given to inspectors, Iraq always had the means to prove it did not have WMD if that was in fact the case. But Iraq never handed over any WMD this past year, and they never showed any evidence of the destruction of the WMD they claimed to have destroyed.

Most reasonable people understand that it was Iraq's responsibility to prove they no longer had the WMD, and they definitely had the means to do that.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

You will have to explain what you are getting at in the two quotes that you mentioned by me.


"The thesis of anticipatory self-defense is thus not an acceptable principle of international law today, because it is prone to arbitrary interpretation. A preemptive attack on another sovereign nation is counter to established and universally accepted standards of international law. This may help to explain the vehemence of opposition to a preemptive attack, among even our staunchest European allies.""

This is an opinion not a fact. Any law is prone to arbitrary interpretation. A Pre-emptive attack can be a just and necessary means of self defense. The 1967 war between Israel and the Arab countries is a good example. If Israel had not acted when it did, it faced the possibility of being wiped from the face of the earth. Anyone who has studied the technical military situation between Israely and Arab forces understands that. A preemptive attack on another sovereign nation is sometimes the only means of survival. Unfortunately, to many people in Europe failed to understand that during the 1930s. The result was the most costly war in human history.
 
STING2 said:
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

You will have to explain what you are getting at in the two quotes that you mentioned by me.

A preemptive attack on another sovereign nation is sometimes the only means of survival. Unfortunately, to many people in Europe failed to understand that during the 1930s. The result was the most costly war in human history.

Nah, I will not have to explain. Why should I? Originally, this thread was about Iran, and we are off topic.

Since you drag out the example of Germany and WW II again, and again, I think it is appropriate to mention that Hitler would never have rised in 1933 if he wouldn?t have been supported heavily by the German steel industry, who wanted to manufacture a lot of arms in order to profit.

So, without that shameless abuse of the principles of capitalism, the European part of WW II could have been prevented as well.

Without right-wing extremists, xenophobia, racism, and media manipulation, it could have been prevented too. Often, there are other possibilities of preventing a war than pre-emptively attacking. In many cases, military interventions are not the only solution, though I can understand you might think so, respecting that you are coming from a family with military experience.

Now back to Iran. Any news? Or are the arguments pro Iran war really just exactly the same as they were in Iraq? The U.S. administration bores me.
 
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