in case you thought Patraeus was apolitical ...

[AEON]

but this still avoids the issue: the Republicans led the country into a disasterous war in Iraq which has made the United States and the rest of the region far less safer.

you can point fingers all you want and call the Dems enablers, but it's still you people that have been drinking long, greedy gulps of spiked Kool Aid for the past 6 years, and this mess is your responsibility.

Well, can't Bush claim that he was lied to by Pelosi, Clinton, Kennedy, and Kerry and felt compelled to act? After all - there had been years of such rhetoric and 9-11 proved that international threats needed to be take seriously. Read those quotes again - they are VERY 'NeoCon-like'

The Democrats are just as much to blame for us going to war as the Republicans. There is no difference in the quotes I posted from them and the Republicans at the time. What is different is that when the war got tough and lost popularity - the Dems abandoned the troops they sent into battle and the Iraqi people that have suffered because of their inaccurate 1998 rhetoric about Saddam’s WMD and threat to the world.

 

[AEON]

could it also be possible that many people didn't think that this adminsitration would turn out to the THE MOST INCOMPETENT IN HISTORY? is it possible that, maybe, just maybe, the authorization of the use of force, IF NECESSARY, wasn't a carte blanche, but an agreement to give the president the ability to use the threat of force as a negotiating tool? is it possible that no one thought he'd acutally go to war in the way that he did with no allies but the UK? is it possible that everyone believed that he would have had a post-war plan? is it possible that people belived that the Bush adminstration WOULD HAVE DONE THEIR HOMEWORK and not done things like DISSOLVE THE ARMY?

i can only hold the 2002 Congress so responsible.

you can dodge and point fingers, but it sounds like you're the guy who got really drunk, jumped up on the bar and started to dance to "honkey tonk woman" and you fell off and you broke your arm, and you're blaming the bartender for serving you drinks.

I think we are trying to adjust tactics to fight in a dynamic, ever-altering battlefield. However, the Democrats are not just saying that we are not fighting well. They are saying we should have never fought there.

However, because of the Dem's hawkish attitude from 1998 to 2003, we have forces in Iraq. I don't understand how you can simply breeze through those quotes and dismiss them as unimportant. They are vital in understanding how we got into this mess.

 

[AEON]

Video Compilation of the Democrats Justifying War

 

[phillyfan26]

Did any of your quotes mention going in without any help from the UN? Did they mention defying the UN?

 

[Infinity]

I've read the quotes very carefully. And yes, all those people were wrong to say what they said. But there is one enormous difference between what the Democrats wanted to do and what Bush did. The Democrats were willing to bomb Iraq had Saddam Hussein not stopped his weapons program and had he not cooperated with the use of weapons inspectors.

It was obvious that the Bush Administration wanted to go into Iraq whether or not they had WMD's, or whether or not Saddam cooperated with the weapons inspectors in his country. He even went as far as misguiding the American public by stating that Iraq had the WMD's even while his top intelligence analysts said they didn't.

We had sent in weapons inspectors from the end of 2002-early 2003. Did they find any WMD's? NO. Did they even finish their search before they were told to leave Iraq? NO. Who told them to leave Iraq? BUSH

This is why the Congress were fools and idiots to believe the President, and the President was/is a liar.

 

[AEON]

Did any of your quotes mention going in without any help from the UN? Did they mention defying the UN?

I am just responding to the "Bush Lied"campaign, and that somehow this is war is all about him lining the pockets of his oil exec golfing buddies. I am saying the war drums had been beating since at least 1998 and it was the Dems holding drumsticks.



I certainly think we went to war with too few US and UN troops.

 

[phillyfan26]

I am just responding to the "Bush Lied"campaign, and that somehow this is war is all about him lining the pockets of his oil exec golfing buddies. I am saying the war drums had been beating since at least 1998 and it was the Dems holding drumsticks.

I certainly think we went to war with too few US and UN troops.

I've never thought this had to do with oil executives. But two things:

Didn't those quotes indicate more of the focus on Iraq that occured with the UN investigations?

Republicans were holding the drumsticks just as much, correct?

 

[Irvine511]

However, because of the Dem's hawkish attitude from 1998 to 2003, we have forces in Iraq. I don't understand how you can simply breeze through those quotes and dismiss them as unimportant. They are vital in understanding how we got into this mess.

you are saying that it was the Democrats that got us into Iraq? are you really saying that? are you really, honestly saying that Iraq is the Democrats' fault?

the quotes are political quotes, and they are only quotes, a flash of a few sentences does not a compelling case make. you know better than that.

this is a Republican war, from start to finish.

its YOUR party that started this war, and YOUR party that has been unable to deal when the war got hard (because YOUR party never planned for the war), and it is YOUR party that is going to lose this war.

correction: it's already lost.

Bush has admitted this. everyone knows this. there's no "victory" anywhere here. it's about cutting losses.

 

[Irvine511]

I am just responding to the "Bush Lied"campaign, and that somehow this is war is all about him lining the pockets of his oil exec golfing buddies. I am saying the war drums had been beating since at least 1998 and it was the Dems holding drumsticks.



I certainly think we went to war with too few US and UN troops.

i can't BELIEVE what your'e trying to pull off here!

you're blaming the democrats for this!!!

amazing!

i guess Cindy Sheehan really has defeated our troops.

 

[AEON]

The Democrats were willing to bomb Iraq had Saddam Hussein not stopped his weapons program and had he not cooperated with the use of weapons inspectors.

Well - they actually supported the invasion but lets say you're right - they would only bomb Iraq.

What would we bomb? Saddam? WMD sites? Infrastructure?

If we killed Saddam - it is now obvious civil war would have broken out and the resulting slaughter would be on a scale of Rwanda or worse (not to mention a Taliban-like regime probably eventually taking control). Essentially, the bomb-supporting Dems would then be responsible for unleashing unbelievable sectarian bloodhsed.

If you are going to bomb a country and leave it without leadership, protection, and resources - the humane thing to do is send in troops to help the civilians get back on their feet.

 

[AEON]

you are saying that it was the Democrats that got us into Iraq? are you really saying that? are you really, honestly saying that Iraq is the Democrats' fault?

the quotes are political quotes, and they are only quotes, a flash of a few sentences does not a compelling case make. you know better than that.

this is a Republican war, from start to finish.

its YOUR party that started this war, and YOUR party that has been unable to deal when the war got hard (because YOUR party never planned for the war), and it is YOUR party that is going to lose this war.

correction: it's already lost.

Bush has admitted this. everyone knows this. there's no "victory" anywhere here. it's about cutting losses.

The context of the quotes are available when you look at the sources link.

And,yes, I "blame" the Dems for this war as much as I "blame" the Republicans. The truth is, BOTH parties sent our "Best and Brightest" (as you would say) into Iraq. The fire was initiated by the Clinton Administration, fanned by 9-11, and then executed (poorly, we all agree) by Bush and Rumsfeld.

Since BOTH parties are responsible for the invasion - BOTH are required to do the right thing for the troops they sent to risk their lives and BOTH are required to protect the civilans of Iraq.

 

[BVS]

The Democrats are just as much to blame for us going to war as the Republicans. There is no difference in the quotes I posted from them and the Republicans at the time. What is different is that when the war got tough and lost popularity - the Dems abandoned the troops they sent into battle and the Iraqi people that have suffered because of their inaccurate 1998 rhetoric about Saddam’s WMD and threat to the world.

Wow, what a warped and revisionist view...

 

[namkcuR]

'executed poorly' is the key phrase. If it had been 'executed' better, the general opinion of this war might be different, because the general state of things might be different. But it WAS 'executed' poorly, and that is ALL on Bushco.

 

[phillyfan26]

The context of the quotes are available when you look at the sources link.

And,yes, I "blame" the Dems for this war as much as I "blame" the Republicans. The truth is, BOTH parties sent our "Best and Brightest" (as you would say) into Iraq. The fire was initiated by the Clinton Administration, fanned by 9-11, and then executed (poorly, we all agree) by Bush and Rumsfeld.

Since BOTH parties are responsible for the invasion - BOTH are required to do the right thing for the troops they sent to risk their lives and BOTH are required to protect the civilans of Iraq.

Again, the skipping over the UN is the big, big difference I see here.

 

[namkcuR]

You are getting desperate, AEON.

It's laughable, you're saying the democrats 'abandoned' the troops. The troops have a very clear understanding with their country: We're prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice, but you don't call on us to make that sacrifice unless it is ABSOLUTELY neccessary. This administration sent the troops into a war that wasn't neccessary. That was the biggest betrayal of the troops, and it that was far more of an 'abandonment' than what you're accusing the democrats of. They are trying to bring the troops home so they don't have to die in vain anymore for this stupid war.

 

[phillyfan26]

Obama said it best was that he supports the troops, he just refuses to support a dumb war.

Withdrawal needs to start now. They can't accomplish anything more, because no matter how long they wait, as soon as they leave, civil war errupts.

 

[AEON]

Wow, what a warped and revisionist view...

Are you saying those quotes aren't real?

 

[AEON]

You are getting desperate, AEON.

This administration sent the troops into a war that wasn't neccessary. That was the biggest betrayal of the troops, and it that was far more of an 'abandonment' than what you're accusing the democrats of.

But the Democrats sent them there just as much as the Republicans.

 

[BVS]

Are you saying those quotes aren't real?

Wow, you've become very skilled in selective reading and twisting of words...

 

[namkcuR]

But the Democrats sent them there just as much as the Republicans.

No. I just don't know how you can say that.

 

[phillyfan26]

But the Democrats sent them there just as much as the Republicans.

Your couple of quotes aren't enough to make a huge statement like that.

 

[Diemen]

But the Democrats sent them there just as much as the Republicans.

BS. So you're saying that the Democrats would've sent our troops into war without the Republican pressure, propaganda and outright lies?

 

[A_Wanderer]

BS. So you're saying that the Democrats would've sent our troops into war without the Republican pressure, propaganda and outright lies?

I don't see why President Al Gore wouldn't have.

 

[AEON]

BS. So you're saying that the Democrats would've sent our troops into war without the Republican pressure, propaganda and outright lies?

I have already demonstrated that if the WMD question was propaganda and a lie - then leaders of both parties have been deceiving everyone since 1998.

The truth is, the war was only possible with the Democrats' vote:



House and Senate Approves Iraq War Resolution

 

[phillyfan26]

But, AEON, do you still not see the jump you have to make from what the Democrats suggested to a war?

 

[phillyfan26]

House and Senate Approves Iraq War Resolution

77-23 and 296-133 as "America speaking with one voice?"

Kucinich opposed it. Obama opposed it (though not yet in Congress).

 

[AEON]

But, AEON, do you still not see the jump you have to make from what the Democrats suggested to a war?

Not at all. Here is a quote from Nancy Pelosi, who is now Speaker fo the House (not a small time position), during the leadup to war.

"I come to this debate, Mr. Speaker, as one at the end of 10 years in office on the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, where stopping the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction was one of my top priorities. I applaud the President on focusing on this issue and on taking the lead to disarm Saddam Hussein. ... Others have talked about this threat that is posed by Saddam Hussein. Yes, he has chemical weapons, he has biological weapons, he is trying to get nuclear weapons."

Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi (Democrat, California)
Addressing the US Senate
October 10, 2002

 

[AEON]

77-23 and 296-133 as "America speaking with one voice?"

Kucinich opposed it. Obama opposed it (though not yet in Congress).

You forgot this part of the article:

The measure passed the Senate and House by wider margins than the 1991 resolution that empowered the current president's father to go to war to expel Iraq from Kuwait. That measure passed 250-183 in the House and 52-47 in the Senate

 

[trevster2k]

This whole discussion of quotes is ridiculous. The climate in America during that time was, you are with us or against us. There was this, support the government or be labelled a traitor ala the Dixie Chicks viewpoint after 911. It is certain that the Democrats showed no political backbone but they have always and continue to show no political backbone during the past 7 years. But to believe that the Democrats are responsible for the events in Iraq is laughable.

 

[A_Wanderer]

This whole discussion of quotes is ridiculous. The climate in America during that time was, you are with us or against us. There was this, support the government or be labelled a traitor ala the Dixie Chicks viewpoint after 911. It is certain that the Democrats showed no political backbone but they have always and continue to show no political backbone during the past 7 years. But to believe that the Democrats are responsible for the events in Iraq is laughable.

This goes back well before September 11, the justification for Clinton bombing Iraq was WMD and the maintainence of sanctions goes back to it as well, acknowledging the failures of the intelligence services and the politicians demands going back before Bush.