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Old 09-16-2007, 07:52 PM   #321
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Originally posted by Infinitum98
Al Gore using those links as a justification for bombing Iraq is different then George Bush bombing Iraq without any links and simply to "spread democracy."
Spreading democracy didn't really come to forefront until we came up empty on the WMD search. WMD was the main sales pitch leading up to the invasion. That was the thrust of the argument Powell presented to the UN.

And as Saddam had clearly used chemical weapons, and not verifiably disarmed, it was a legitimate argument. It also turned out to be tragically tragically wrong.
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:57 PM   #322
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How exactly is this war ONLY the Republicans fault? You said the current Dem candidates that voted for the war have apologized - is that all you need? They vote to send 150,000 troops into a country smack dab in the heart of the Middle East and put the lives of millions of Iraqi civilians at risk, and all they have to say is "I'm sorry" and you are fine with that?

I am sure you are a forgiving person. That's a good thing. I would hope that same sense forgiveness and understanding would extend to the Republicans that were also deceived by the faulty intelligence Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush have handed them.
You seem to have missed most of his post. He clearly stated more than just an apology as his reasons.

And how is Clinton involved in this, other than him saying Saddam's probably a threat?
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:01 PM   #323
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Spreading democracy didn't really come to forefront until we came up empty on the WMD search. WMD was the main sales pitch leading up to the invasion.
Wolfowitz's exact quote on the matter:

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"The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on, which was weapons of mass destruction, as the core reason. There have always been three fundamental concerns. One is weapons of mass destruction, the second is support for terrorism, the third is the criminal treatment of the Iraqi people. Actually, I guess you could say there's a fourth overriding one, which is the connection between the first two."
So, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:53 PM   #324
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How exactly is this war ONLY the Republicans fault? You said the current Dem candidates that voted for the war have apologized - is that all you need? They vote to send 150,000 troops into a country smack dab in the heart of the Middle East and put the lives of millions of Iraqi civilians at risk, and all they have to say is "I'm sorry" and you are fine with that?

I am sure you are a forgiving person. That's a good thing. I would hope that same sense forgiveness and understanding would extend to the Republicans that were also deceived by the faulty intelligence Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush have handed them.


it's like with an alcoholic.

sure, there are enablers, but someone's drinking the whiskey and hitting his wife and driving drunk.

do you like this better: it's the REPUBLICANS who have LOST this war.

and, yes, i am fine with politicians saying, yes, i made a mistake. yes, i thought the people in this administration had more than three collective brain cells. no, i could never, ever have imagined it has been this mismanaged.

what matters is what's happened since then.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:03 AM   #325
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particularly Democrats, but it's unfair to frame it as if they don't care about the troops.
Thanks for that. I find the kind of "the Democrats hate the troops, the Democrats want us to lose" type of argument just the worst kind of dishonesty and cynical rabble rousing.

It's just naked propaganda.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:13 AM   #326
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Using the Democrat's concerns about Saddam, pre-9/11 against them is just wrong. Saddam was a concern--he DID have WMD at one time and he used them. He's the sort who might not have minded giving some friendly shelter to a terrorist group, but the war was an over-reaction to that concern. It still amazes me how people can't see that 9/11 to war in Iraq was NOT a logical progression. Regime change in Saudia Arabia maybe, but Iraq?

I don't have any objection to anyone suggesting the Dems were cowards. . .they were. I don't buy most of their "apologies." That's how they get around admitting they didn't have the guts to do the right thing.

But bottom line, it was the Bush administration that led the way, it was the Bush administration that bungled the execution, and it was Republicans and conservative-talk-show-listening America that both bought and sold the jingoistic bs that got us into this mess.

The Democrats need to apologize, not for being "wrong" but for being cowardly.

The Republicans need to apologize for being wrong.

And the American people who supported this fiasco need to turn Rush OFF and start thinking with their heads instead of responding to emotional manipulation.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:41 AM   #327
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AEON, would you honestly sit there and apportion "guilt" (for lack of a better word) at 50/50?
I think anyone who voted for the war is 100% "guilty" for starting the war.

However, I certainly blame Bush, Rumsfeld, and Bremer for poorly executing Phase II (after the initial toppling of the government). The only honorable thing left to do is to fix that mess. I think it is worth a shot for the sake of millions of lives.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:55 AM   #328
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The only honorable thing left to do is to fix that mess. I think it is worth a shot for the sake of millions of lives. [/B]


how do we fix it?

how long do we give something a "shot" before we determine that it's a bad policy?
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:07 AM   #329
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how do we fix it?

how long do we give something a "shot" before we determine that it's a bad policy?
That what is a bad policy? The war or the way we are fighting it?
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:06 PM   #330
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That what is a bad policy? The war or the way we are fighting it?


i'd argue both. and i'd argue it became policy the minute these fools in the White House thought that war was good policy.

it was screwed from the beginning. as the Far Left has said from the beginning, and i've agreed, and we've been right all along, it doesn't matter whether the war was a good idea implemented badly. it became a bad idea the minute Bush and Cheney and Co. cooked it up because these were precisely the wrong people to go about doing this.

it's all ultimately irrelevant. Bush, Gore, even Bush 1, would never have thought this war was a policy worth pusuing, whether it would have been good or not. because Bush 2 thought it worth pursuing, it became, by definition, a bad idea.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:07 PM   #331
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Originally posted by maycocksean
Using the Democrat's concerns about Saddam, pre-9/11 against them is just wrong. Saddam was a concern--he DID have WMD at one time and he used them. He's the sort who might not have minded giving some friendly shelter to a terrorist group, but the war was an over-reaction to that concern. It still amazes me how people can't see that 9/11 to war in Iraq was NOT a logical progression. Regime change in Saudia Arabia maybe, but Iraq?

I don't have any objection to anyone suggesting the Dems were cowards. . .they were. I don't buy most of their "apologies." That's how they get around admitting they didn't have the guts to do the right thing.

But bottom line, it was the Bush administration that led the way, it was the Bush administration that bungled the execution, and it was Republicans and conservative-talk-show-listening America that both bought and sold the jingoistic bs that got us into this mess.

The Democrats need to apologize, not for being "wrong" but for being cowardly.

The Republicans need to apologize for being wrong.

And the American people who supported this fiasco need to turn Rush OFF and start thinking with their heads instead of responding to emotional manipulation.
AMEN!
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:18 PM   #332
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The only honorable thing left to do is to fix that mess. I think it is worth a shot for the sake of millions of lives.
But the problem is that we can't fix it. The Sunnis and the Shiites are going to want to kill each other no matter what. Sure, the U.S. troops are making a difference. We are preventing it from being a full blown Civil War. But whenever we leave, its going to explode. It is going to be an outright civil war whether we leave tomorrow or the day after or the year after or the decade after. And the war will go on until the groups come to an agreement, or until one group overtakes another one. It is going to happen. It is happening now even while we are there.

The Republicans say that if we withdraw, then the whole place will explode. I agree. But they fail to mention that there is no such thing as a permanent military solution in terms of our strategy. Our troops are dying every single day. Iraqis are dying every single day. We are spending $300,000,000 a day. And NONE of it will have a long term effect.

The Bush Administration is now saying that we can withdraw some troops by next March. Okay, so we will begin withdrawing, and all the "progress" we have made in the last six months will diminish and the Sunnis and Shiites will fight more and more as more and more U.S. troops leave.

I really don't get Bush. He has said many times that if we announce withdrawal, then our enemies will just wait until we withdraw and then come out and cause violence. But didn't he just announce withdrawal of 30,000 troops?

This is just getting ridiculous. I just don't get how people can buy this garbage.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:18 PM   #333
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I think anyone who voted for the war is 100% "guilty" for starting the war.

However, I certainly blame Bush, Rumsfeld, and Bremer for poorly executing Phase II (after the initial toppling of the government). The only honorable thing left to do is to fix that mess. I think it is worth a shot for the sake of millions of lives.
That's like ignoring the context in which Dennis Kucinich voted against the 9/11 memorial bill.

The only honorable thing to do (if honorable has to be used) is to admit the mistake (way too late) and get out of there already. Nothing will be accomplished by us staying. We can't fix the mess. The mess that we created. That's the problem with this war.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:28 PM   #334
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And the American people who supported this fiasco need to turn Rush OFF and start thinking with their heads instead of responding to emotional manipulation.
I hardly think Kerry, Edwards, and Hillary Clinton, 3 American people that supported this fiasco by voting for it, listen to Rush Limbaugh. (and neither do I, for the record)
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:32 PM   #335
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I hardly think Kerry, Edwards, and Hillary Clinton, 3 American people that supported this fiasco by voting for it, listen to Rush Limbaugh. (and neither do I, for the record)


aren't you doing the troops a disservice by assigning blame and seeking to blast the Democrats instead of trying to come up with a solution to this problem?

what are you gaining by trying to tie a rope tied to this brick around the leg of the Dem candidates?
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:47 PM   #336
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aren't you doing the troops a disservice by assigning blame and seeking to blast the Democrats instead of trying to come up with a solution to this problem?

what are you gaining by trying to tie a rope tied to this brick around the leg of the Dem candidates?
I was simply correcting Maycocksean's assumption that those who started the war were all brainwashed Rush-Republicans.

I think there has been a change in strategy. I think were finally seeing some measurable progress. And I think we are on a path to solving the mess. But it needs time, money, and the patience of the electorate.

Simply "Pulling Out Now" is not a valid option. Simply saying "Bush Lied" is not a valid excuse.

In addition, I did "sign on the bottom line" to do my small part in solving the overall problem with terrorism.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:00 PM   #337
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Simply "Pulling Out Now" is not a valid option. Simply saying "Bush Lied" is not a valid excuse.
but see here's the thing...i don't know of any politican that is saying "pull out and be done with it". EVERYBODY knows that you can't just pull out and then forget it ever happened. i don't know why so many who support the war have the idea that those who don't want to do that. kucinich, for example, has a very detailed 12-step plan. while the first step of that is to bring home the troops, the rest of the steps require getting back involved with the Global Community like working with international peace keepers, support state reconstruction back by Iraqui workers.

i think saying "pulling out now will make matters worse" or whatever is something that we all know. it is important to keep in mind that pulling out means pulling out of troops and contractors. it does not mean we are pulling out our support for the nation to rebuild itself.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:05 PM   #338
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Originally posted by maycocksean
Using the Democrat's concerns about Saddam, pre-9/11 against them is just wrong. Saddam was a concern--he DID have WMD at one time and he used them. He's the sort who might not have minded giving some friendly shelter to a terrorist group, but the war was an over-reaction to that concern. It still amazes me how people can't see that 9/11 to war in Iraq was NOT a logical progression. Regime change in Saudia Arabia maybe, but Iraq?

I don't have any objection to anyone suggesting the Dems were cowards. . .they were. I don't buy most of their "apologies." That's how they get around admitting they didn't have the guts to do the right thing.

But bottom line, it was the Bush administration that led the way, it was the Bush administration that bungled the execution, and it was Republicans and conservative-talk-show-listening America that both bought and sold the jingoistic bs that got us into this mess.

The Democrats need to apologize, not for being "wrong" but for being cowardly.

The Republicans need to apologize for being wrong.

And the American people who supported this fiasco need to turn Rush OFF and start thinking with their heads instead of responding to emotional manipulation.
Sean nailed it!!

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Old 09-17-2007, 03:08 PM   #339
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In addition, I did "sign on the bottom line" to do my small part in solving the overall problem with terrorism.
So then don't you feel cheated that our resources and money went into a war that wasn't about terrorism?
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:14 PM   #340
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So then don't you feel cheated that our resources and money went into a war that wasn't about terrorism?
or perhaps that $9 billion of it has gone missing/unaccounted for?
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