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Old 11-15-2002, 07:43 AM   #41
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It is a policy of this forum not to cut and paste from other threads.

Each thread stands on its own. Removing remarks from their threads is misleading. The posts are available for every member to read in the context they were written. That is why I posted them.
I'm not quite sure what deep meant, and even I as a mod am not aware of any policy regarding this. We do, of course, discourage posts that cut-and-paste in a deliberately manipulative way to remove ideas from their original context and possibly mislead other post-ers, and if it happens a lot it might be cause for action. But as long as you do so responsibly, with respect for the original words of the post-er and proper credit is given, I don't *think* it's a problem...

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Old 11-15-2002, 08:45 AM   #42
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I think I understand where deep is coming from, but I do not believe there has ever been a strict no cutting and pasting policy set for these forums to be completely pedantic about this. It IS frowned upon for those exact reasons that arguments can be taken out of context and also to endeavour that an argument be contained to its original thread. In this instance, boywonder began by stating quite clearly what his intention was by quoting those replies, however, quoting without prior consent of the individual/s you are referencing opens a can of worms and often brings irrelevance and personal attacks into the picture. It is ultimately up to the individual to decide someone has crossed the line. We cant tell people how to react to things, I think if deep and/or boywonder want to discuss it further then that is a good option.
Its never a good idea to cut and paste to prove something like bias though. Bias is something we all have to an extent. Its kinda moot dontchya think?
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Old 11-15-2002, 09:19 AM   #43
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Originally posted by boywonder

There's a big difference between criticism of personal hygeine and criticism of rampant capitalism. One is much more serious than the other.

He won't sign Kyoto, he won't make cars more fuel efficient, he's threatening a war with a psychopathic, murderous dictator. Meanwhile, millions starve, people get tortured and imprisoned, etc etc.

Europeans should start posting about European issues even if you don't win the popularity contest and all of the ridiculous denials of bias from the left should be accompanied with criticism of OTHER countries if you actually care to be taken seriously.
True, criticism of this form of capitalism (call it monetarism, neo - liberalism or globalisation, probably its a mixture of all three) is much more seroius than criticism of personal hygiene.

Millions starve, and nearly two billions are absolutely poor, due to the political and economical measures of European and U.S. actors. I don´t know what could be more serious matter on this planet.
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Old 11-15-2002, 09:35 AM   #44
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Originally posted by boywonder

Issues that you've all been ignoring:
1. Why don't I see any anti-European policy posts on FYM?
2. Why is America criticized for actions that pale in comparison to the injustices in other countries?
1. You are ignoring that I do critical posts of every European policy that I don´t like.

2. I am never critisizing America, I am critisizing the evil small minority of neo-liberal actors that push their politics and don´t give a shit about nearly 2 billions of human beings in absolute poverty, in order to make more profit.

3. Those actions mentioned in 2., are not pale in compare to whatever.
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Old 11-15-2002, 09:11 PM   #45
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"1.Why don't I see any anti-European policy posts on FYM?"

Perhaps because you've just joined. Myself, whenhiphopdrovethebigcars, Fizzingwhizbees and many others have ALWAYS criticised European policies when the matter has come up, and it has. These threads, and I am not 'whining about losing the popularity contest', disappear quicker than a rabbit gets pregnant, and don't get much attention. Conduct a search, look at ALL my posts. You'll find I'm not my Prime Minister's number 1 fan, and I voted for him. I have always been a firm believer in arguing and criticising EVERYTHING I believe in, in order to make it stronger, and I am not special in this category.

"2.Why is America criticized for actions that pale in comparison to the injustices in other countries?"

Again, another disproportionate argument. If a thread is entitled 'American Foreign Policy Sucks', then the thread will most likely be about American Foreign Policy, not about Milosovic's war crimes.

With all due respect, you don't have the knowledge of what went on before, the sheer bulk of opinions that have gone into the place, and the endless debates concerning FAR MORE than America and its policies. Again, look at MY posts and you will see me quite rightly condemning the Taliban when the argument came up, Saudi Arabia and the dangers it presents, Milosovic and his war crimes, French foreign policy concerning the CAP, the seeming rise of fascism in Europe at the hands of Lepin in France, the assasination of Pim Fortuyn (forgive the spelling) and its implications for Europe etc. It is advisable to not make rash generalisations, most people don't fit nicely under such. I do too like to 'pick and choose my fights wisely', and I can safely say that I have more concerns that are more important to me than American policy, and have, more often than not when presented with the opportunity, picked to dicuss those than the matter at hand. My life does not revolve around the 'stupidity that is America'. Although I am going to go see Michael Moore tomorrow. Hehe.

I take offence in being swept under the 'Anti-Americanism' rug merely because I am a liberal. As you well know, there are as many different types of liberals as there are many different types of Conservatives.

And no, you aren't the first person to recognise or say that not all Conservatives are crooks and lowlifes, a lot of people have said it before you, and will say it again. FYM is not the whole truth, we only get to see what is demonstrated, one can't infer what their general opinion is unless they say so.

You say 'we' (though I don't understand who this 'we' is, the moment you start using words such as 'these people' you run the risk of sounding a bit of a generaliser, and not particularly endearing people to your argument) have become overly defensive. I would confirm this as true, as well as conceding that you, and others who love to use the expression 'anti-Americanism', have become just as overly defensive. I believe that the term anti-Americanism has in fact been developed from this overly defensiveness.

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Old 11-15-2002, 10:27 PM   #46
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True, some of the Europeans have criticised the E.U. concept.

And Blair's support of the War on Terrorism.

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Old 11-16-2002, 05:44 AM   #47
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I planned to leave Holland (well almost) when the current (almost past) government was elected even though the political party I support is in it

I think the way the political party I support is acting nowadays is questionable (for a lack of a better word)

I think the current efforts for European unity are lack lustre


I want to congratulate myself of giving Bama an online orgasm by expressing my doubts on dutch/european subjects
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Old 11-16-2002, 12:12 PM   #48
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It is true that the current efforts for European Unity are lacklustre, but why leave it at that? I think they are appalling and governed by a shameless display of self-interest and political greed; and I have my eyes firmly placed on France and Germany when stating this.

I criticise France for its gung-ho attitude to the whole European concept, "it is OUR way or the highway, you will pay for our farmers and smile about it". They can do this, because they have Germany right behind them.

Britain is pretty much lacklustre, to say the least, when it comes to the EU. You have a government that wants more intergation (which I totally agree with) and a lot of pig-ignorant people in the general public who think that it would be 'giving up soveriegnty', and you have a Prime Minister who, when tackling the selfish interests of the French, is accused of being 'rude' by the French president.

So, yes. The moment Britain removes its head from the sand and Germany and France stop being so bloody selfish, then European integration will be that much better off.

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Old 11-16-2002, 03:37 PM   #49
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Any chance the United Kingdom will adopt the Euro in the near future?
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Old 11-16-2002, 07:45 PM   #50
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"Any chance the United Kingdom will adopt the Euro in the near future?"

Well, the Labour government, a loooong time ago, said that they would decide when the time would come. The time would be decided when the 'five economic tests' were met and our chancellor was satisfied with the results. The deadline, it has been announced, will be next year, and indeed, the Queen's speech made it clear that 'my government will decide whether to join the Euro or not following the five economic tests' - so whatever the decision is, it will be decided sometime soon.

The UK, although it elected a Euro-friendly government, is pretty much divided over the whole thing. A lot of people want it, they want to be a bigger part of Europe and feel that joining the Euro will do so. A lot of people, however, are very euro-phobic. They see the Euro as a loss of sovereignty, economic jeopardy, being dictated to by foreign countries, takin orders from France and Germany etc. Our Prime Minister, though, is a huge Euro-fan. Its no secret that he wants to be president of Europe.

I hope we join, I really hope we do.

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