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Old 11-14-2002, 06:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
how much stroking does conservatism need?
Can we get a picture of you in a "I Ronald Reagan" T-shirt?
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Old 11-14-2002, 09:10 PM   #22
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Can we get a picture of you in a "I Ronald Reagan" T-shirt?
I will pay him $ to wear that..
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:03 PM   #23
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Originally posted by melon
I think what is silliest is the extremist attitude such subjects bring. You either "love" America or you "hate" America, with the former generally meaning that you are a rabid conservative or a rabid liberal...isn't that what you really want to say? Fortunately for America, most people are centrists. The "American guilt complex" is in your head. I mean, you already have the House, Senate, and White House...how much stroking does conservatism need?

Melon
A concept that is has been commented upon by several prominent media sources is a joke? Who are you kidding? There are plenty of people who would be ashamed to identify as an American if they went to Europe. Go to any socialist rally and wave an American flag and check out the response. I have several friends who are so anti- American policy that they have openly stated that they are ashamed to identify as an American.

You all have become overly defensive. There are several Europeans on here who could easily post more about European topics, but it's YOUR choice not to. You've turned it around and made it seem like it's the fault of everyone that you don't get enough attention to your issues. The multitude of threads bashing Bush and our current administration come from both sides of the Atlantic. This is the heart of bias.

Anthony, if you asked a Frenchmen questions about our political\social\economic system and he criticizes several aspects of it, then he is anti-American, because these aspects of our system are dictated by our collective choices in politicians, so they are a reflection of us (maybe not all of us).
The jokes made in the U.S. about France are silly and never taken seriously. There's a big difference between criticism of personal hygeine and criticism of rampant capitalism. One is much more serious than the other.

Everyone has ignored STING2's comments about the threads in this forum that ignore human rights abuses in countries more deserving of criticism. And you all wonder why we think you're biased? In a world of genocide, slavery and mass starvation, why is most of the attention focused on Bush!? Because he makes for an easy target? He won't sign Kyoto, he won't make cars more fuel efficient, he's threatening a war with a psychopathic, murderous dictator. Meanwhile, millions starve, people get tortured and imprisoned, etc etc.

U2 is an international band. This is an international forum. Europeans should start posting about European issues even if you don't win the popularity contest and all of the ridiculous denials of bias from the left should be accompanied with criticism of OTHER countries if you actually care to be taken seriously.
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:31 PM   #24
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Originally posted by boywonder


Anthony, if you asked a Frenchmen questions about our political\social\economic system and he criticizes several aspects of it, then he is anti-American, because these aspects of our system are dictated by our collective choices in politicians, so they are a reflection of us (maybe not all of us).
How is someone criticizing some of our policies automatically anti-American? I criticize quite a few American policies, but I'm American and have no problem admitting it. To me, real anti-Americanism is what was manifest on 9/11 in Mohammed Atta and his amateur pilot buddies. Some criticism of certain policies is hardly anti-American.

I also criticize some Catholic policies, but I was raised Catholic and still attend Mass at my school. Does that make me anti-Catholic?
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:40 PM   #25
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I've heard a sizable percentage of Belgian kids can't find Belgium on the map, but that's a different story all together...
but do they where waffles come from?
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:44 PM   #26
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but do they where waffles come from?
ha ha
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:50 PM   #27
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Originally posted by boywonder





U2 is an international band. This is an international forum. Europeans should start posting about European issues even if you don't win the popularity contest and all of the ridiculous denials of bias from the left should be accompanied with criticism of OTHER countries if you actually care to be taken seriously.
I can't think of any European country that is imposing their values on Americans.

However, I can think of American actions that are affecting many other countries.
Kyoto
Stem cell research (US is trying to get UN cloning research to conform to Whitehouse policy)
Family planning, birth control
Helms-Hartley Act (punish countries that trade with Cuba)
International Criminal Court, we want exemption

This administration wants it there way only. These actions create what you call anti-Americanism.

Europeans have a right to comment, because it affects their lives.
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Old 11-14-2002, 11:26 PM   #28
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Originally posted by deep


I can't think of any European country that is imposing their values on Americans.

However, I can think of American actions that are affecting many other countries.
Kyoto
Stem cell research (US is trying to get UN cloning research to conform to Whitehouse policy)
Family planning, birth control
Helms-Hartley Act (punish countries that trade with Cuba)
International Criminal Court, we want exemption

This administration wants it there way only. These actions create what you call anti-Americanism.

Europeans have a right to comment, because it affects their lives.
The administration wants it there way? What administration doesn't? Very silly comment.
Europeans comment on a lot of things that don't affect them. How does our healthcare, legalization of guns and death penalty affect them? Obviously you know about these issues. How convenient that you left them out. I've never met an American that complains about France's rampant corruption or France and Germany's dealings with the Iraqi regime or the hundreds of other criticisms one could dish out about Europe. I think Europe is most DEFINITELY imposing thier values on us. What do you think all this open criticism is for? Fun? They want us to change. Why would they have protests in Spain against the U.S. use of the death penalty? For kicks?

Complaining about certain policies is fine. Nowhere in my message did I suggest that dissent is unAmerican. I'm suggesting that many Europeans are biased against us because they view us as an arrogant, ignorant and gluttonous society. It's not a matter of just our policies, though criticism of those policies (especially those that don't concern them) is just an outward expression of the underlying and growing disgust for our lifestyle.

I've met plenty of Americans who are quick to place blame on our government without considering the facts. This propensity to "blame America first" is what I find laughable. That's what I consider anti-American. They WANT to blame America first. After 9/11, all I hear from these people are complaints about how the Taliban prisoners are being treated, how we're a war-hungry society, we brought it on ourselves, etc etc FOREVER. There are perfectly fair explanations for our actions, but they'd prefer to believe otherwise. Why?

Issues that you've all been ignoring:
1. Why don't I see any anti-European policy posts on FYM?
2. Why is America criticized for actions that pale in comparison to the injustices in other countries?

If you're going to ask why I think there is an unjust bias among many Europeans and some Americans, you'll find the answer in the disproportionate criticism on this board.
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Old 11-15-2002, 12:15 AM   #29
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All members of this forum have the right to respond to any thread they choose.

There are rules, guidelines of this community. As long as they abide by them, what is the problem.




If one disagrees, then state so and give good counter points.

Why come to an open forum and then whine about others having the right to post.
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:03 AM   #30
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Originally posted by deep
All members of this forum have the right to respond to any thread they choose.

There are rules, guidelines of this community. As long as they abide by them, what is the problem.




If one disagrees, then state so and give good counter points.

Why come to an open forum and then whine about others having the right to post.
Man, I am so sick and tired about liberals whining about their "rights". This has nothing to do with your right to post here (I'm not sure anyone has a right to post on an online privately-owned forum anyways). This has to do with bias. The type of posts I mention (or the lack thereof) indicate BIAS. Inherent BIAS. Anyone who considers themselves a centrist or a conservative would be shocked at the constant and often unwarranted cynicism spread by many members of this forum. For instance, DEEP:

Here's your recent posting record:

Deep on the issue of women's rights article in Iraq:

"I am not surprised this got little exposure in the US.
This does not serve the "official US line" on Iraq.
This is one of the reasons that US Administrations phony linkage to the Taliban was not believed by anyone, but lackeys."

"W and Company will have you paying more taxes than any lefties left standing."

"Many Americans do not like the UN. Just because the US can not dictate the exact terms in every situation. They lose their minds like little children throwing tantrums."

"The administrationís plan for reviving the economy is spending their way out of this recession. The concept of fiscal conservative is a myth to this administration. Hold on to your wallet. And get ready to downsize your life style."

"Florida balloting will be mishandled again. Jeb will get reelected. lucky for him florida does not have a three strikes law. he should be locked up for allowing Americans to be disenfranchised."

"The whole system is pathetic. On NPR today I heard that dems got a voice mail from Clinton. I think Greens would have gotten one from Nader if they had BIG money to pay for it. The Republicans ripped Clinton for fund raising. W. has far surpassed anything Clinton did. They all hypocrites."

Seriously, could you be a more cynical and conservative-hating poster?

Just when someone might argue that he's just being a "good" American by trying to give valid criticism, he criticizes Bush EVEN when he does something right by attacking the Christian right on their stance against Islam.

Here's what he had to say (BTW, I predicted this would happen at the beginning of the thread):

"I would have more respect for W. is he had said this when it might have cost him. Why did he not make these remarks when Falwell made his ignorant remarks, why did he not speak up before the election.

The Christian Coalition is a powerful voting block. He was silent because he could not risk them being offended and staying home on Election Day. This is typical of politicians. When Bush campaigned he said he would not put his finger to the wind. That is a big lie, they are polling like crazy.
Most politicians do. He is just going back on his word."

It's just CONSTANT CYNICISM even when it's undeserved. Many liberals argue that criticism of policy is what being an American is all about. The true patriots (i.e. MLK, Chavez) pick and choose their battles. They don't attack every issue presented from one side of the political spectrum (the conservative side, in this case).

Sorry to make it personal, Deep. I just need to demonstrate why most conservatives on here will come off with that impression of some of you. Not all conservative politicians are crooks, liars and cheats! Let me be the first to say that in FYM.
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:16 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder


Not all conservative politicians are crooks, liars and cheats!
You MUST be joking???
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:23 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder


Man, I am so sick and tired about liberals whining about their "rights".

. Inherent BIAS
Here's your recent posting record:
"lackeys."--(This is name calling)



"Florida balloting will be mishandled again. Jeb will get reelected. lucky for him florida does not have a three strikes law. he should be locked up for allowing Americans to be disenfranchised."



Seriously, could you be a more cynical and conservative-hating poster?


The true patriots (i.e. MLK, Chavez) pick and choose their battles. They don't attack every issue presented from one side of the political spectrum (the conservative side, in this case). cheats! Let me be the first to say that in FYM.
Good post Mr Wonder

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Old 11-15-2002, 01:23 AM   #33
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Boywonder,

It is a policy of this forum not to cut and paste from other threads.

Each thread stands on its own. Removing remarks from their threads is misleading. The posts are available for every member to read in the context they were written. That is why I posted them.

If you canít stay on point without distorting it is not possible to have credible discussion.
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:27 AM   #34
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deep should practice what he preaches.
he really should.

Peace-
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:29 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Boywonder,

It is a policy of this forum not to cut and paste from other threads.

Each thread stands on its own. Removing remarks from their threads is misleading. The posts are available for every member to read in the context they were written. That is why I posted them.

If you canít stay on point without distorting it is not possible to have credible discussion.
deep:

I am not wishing to cause any trouble or disagreement here, but I have never heard of this policy. Is it posted somewhere? I have done this a few times myself and I have never been reprimanded for it not have I ever seen a rule against it. Thanks, and I am only curious.

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Old 11-15-2002, 01:29 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Boywonder,

It is a policy of this forum not to cut and paste from other threads.

Each thread stands on its own. Removing remarks from their threads is misleading. The posts are available for every member to read in the context they were written. That is why I posted them.

If you canít stay on point without distorting it is not possible to have credible discussion.
Most of the points in my thread were the FULL quote, so there was no additional context there. I didn't MISREPRESENT. The point of my arguement requires that I show a trend in behaviour. How can I do that if I can't refer to evidence? It's like everyone reinvents themselves with every thread. Life isn't like that, why should a forum be like that?

I don't remember rules about quoting other threads. I'm new, so maybe I missed something.
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:33 AM   #37
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ex post facto
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:34 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder


Most of the points in my thread were the FULL quote, so there was no additional context there. I didn't MISREPRESENT. The point of my arguement requires that I show a trend in behaviour.

I don't remember rules about quoting other threads. I'm new, so maybe I missed something.
I never heard of this rule Mr Wonder either.
If it exists, it is an obscure rule that is NOT enforced.
Ive been here a long time..
Bama has been here longer than both of us.-( for years).


Deep is guilty of doing what he accused you of.

Dont fret.
You did not take anything outta context, you made a valid point..

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Old 11-15-2002, 04:37 AM   #39
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anti-america why blah blah waaaaaah cry me a fucking river.
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Old 11-15-2002, 05:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder


Issues that you've all been ignoring:
1. Why don't I see any anti-European policy posts on FYM?
I suggest you read your own posts. Then you've found those posts.

C ya!

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