I'm angry to the point that...

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by anitram:

These, and other issues, point to the need of the Church to evolve with the times.
[This message has been edited by anitram (edited 11-29-2001).]

I agree that on some issues, "evolving with the times" is okay - as in music and things like that. Also, cultural mores, like how long women should grow their hair - Laws concerning restrictions like hair growth were based on cultural values and not on God's edicts.
However, to say that the church needs to evolve with the times when it comes to moral values, I must disagree. That fact is that on many many issues, it was God who decided what is morally acceptable and unacceptable, so if the church were to change its stance on these issues just because the world has changed its stance, that would be wrong. God doesn't change. His view of what is right and wrong doesn't change. In fact, if we do change our moral values in an effort to "be with the times", I would suggest that we are selling Christianity out - we are watering it down.

[Screaming Flower]

That fact is that on many many issues, it was God who decided what is morally acceptable and unacceptable, so if the church were to change its stance on these issues just because the world has changed its stance, that would be wrong.

but the people who are interpreting God's word aren't infallible so there has to be room for question and change. often our interpretations of God's law are reflections of the culture and time of which they were written, some of which were more a form of social control than a direct interpretation of God's revelation.

[Anthony]

80sU2isBest;

I am concerned when you say that God set certain morals, well not concerned, but curious. Can you give me the one moral he set in stone besides the moral of loving each other? I know you have an amazing amount of knowledge of the Bible, so I would like you to give me some examples, so I can know what you're talking about.

Ant.

[melon]

I do not necessarily want the Catholic Church to change by mere popular capitulation, necessarily, and I agree with much of the basics. It's all that aggregious and selective abuse of its tradition, the lies and purposeful deception about its past, and, now, its encouragement of secular discrimination against same-sex couples, which, for some reason, the Church does not believe can co-exist with the traditional family--which is ludicrous. I want the Catholic Church to change because it finally admits it has been wrong in some instances, and wishes to rectify it.

I'm only disappointed that, with all the spectacle of Jubilee 2000 and the encouragement of repentance for past sins, the Church didn't make a full confession, keeping it's self-righteous high road as usual. I don't have time right now, but I'll list quite a few of it's sins when I get back, and many of them won't be pretty. I'm willing to forgive these sins, but it needs to confess them first.

and sharky, it's true. I don't really have dogma issues as much as I have issues over doctrine.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 11-29-2001).]

[anitram]

Originally posted by melon:
I'm only disappointed that, with all the spectacle of Jubilee 2000 and the encouragement of repentance for past sins, the Church didn't make a full confession, keeping it's self-righteous high road as usual.

I think it's mostly an issue of the speed at which progress can occur. Would it be wonderful if they did all of the things you talk about? Absolutely. Would it be expected? No. Progress and reform are both slow processes. I think one day, we'll get there, but realistically, you can't do it overnight.

[oliveu2cm]

Originally posted by sharky:
Some of my best friends in college I met at the Catholic church that served the campus. We were all messed up in our own way-- abortions, suicidal tendencies, drug addictions, self mutilation, etc. etc. These are people that you are supposed to condemn in the Catholic church. But sometimes, when given the chance, those people tend to be the best role models and live better Christian lives than people who show up at church every Sunday and go home without living God's word. Agree or disagree with the church if you want, but in the end its your actions when you are outside of the church building that really show what kind of a Catholic you are.

Wow everything you wrote was very well said. I really agree with you. And with CK (which surprised me lol - no offense CK, but usually I dont agree w/ you!)

Melon- I guess my 2cents would be that I'm glad you are thinking this out which shows a real maturity and need for the very thing that is causing you discomfort, rather than just abandoning it all- and secondly that one of your posts about not feeling like part of a community.. I'm not sure if you meant your town Church or where ever you go, or the Church as in *everyone*, BUT if it's the first- then maybe you could find what you're looking for, or at least a little more support and enjoyment, from a different parish?

Sorry I don't post here much so hope I didn't step on any toes or not really contribute anything.

olive

ok this is really weird but I just got this quote emailed to me from a friend:
"I don't always know the best way to please you my Lord, but I think the fact that I want to please you, pleases you." Unknown monk
------------------
She tied you to the kitchen chair
She broke your throne She cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

* U2 Take Me Higher *

[This message has been edited by oliveu2cm (edited 11-29-2001).]

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Anthony:
80sU2isBest;

I am concerned when you say that God set certain morals, well not concerned, but curious. Can you give me the one moral he set in stone besides the moral of loving each other? I know you have an amazing amount of knowledge of the Bible, so I would like you to give me some examples, so I can know what you're talking about.
Ant.

I don't think I have an amazing knowledge of the Bible, I just read it and believe it. But thanks for the high compliment!
It's funny you say set in stone, because I was going to start with the 10 commandments, which were actually set in stone:
1)Worship God and God alone
2)Do not make idols.
3)Don't take the name of the Lord in vain
4)Keep the Sabbath Day Holy
5)Honor your Father and Mother
6)Do not murder.
7)Do not commit adultery.
8)do not ssteal
9)Do not lie
10)Do not covet

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Screaming Flower:
but the people who are interpreting God's word aren't infallible so there has to be room for question and change. often our interpretations of God's law are reflections of the culture and time of which they were written, some of which were more a form of social control than a direct interpretation of God's revelation.

In some things, yes, there has to be room for change, such as most of the laws the Jewish priests threw in on top of the laws God ordained; things such as women not speaking in church, etc. However, there are things not open to change because there is no other way to interpret them; things like the 10 Commandments - how can you misinterpret any of these? When God said "Don't commit adultery", that's what He meant. These basic values form the very backbone of moral society.

[melon]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
It's funny you say set in stone, because I was going to start with the 10 commandments, which were actually set in stone

Hmm...I hate to sound repetitive, but...

Romans 13:8-10--"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."

It's quickly becoming my favorite passage, with Ecclesiastes 3, my old favorite, still in contention.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[Anthony]

Erm, 80sU2isBest, when I asked for God's message I meant Jesus specifically... not the ten commandments. It might just be me, but I find most (if not the entirety) of the Old Testament quite humourous; it won't do.

When I ask for God's words, I was thinking more along the lines of Jesus Christ, not what some Hebrew scholar remembers his distant relative who remembered some distant friend of his that knew of someone who knew Moses, and consequently told him to write it down. If one is to think of those as God's words, then;

a)everyone in the rest of the old testament, from Elijah to God itself, is automatically guilty of 'THOU SHALL NOT KILL'. I don't know how people can rabbit on about how violent movies and literature has become, just look at the Old Testament, its the most blood-soaked and violent epic tale of brutality ever told!

c)Besides that one, the Catholic Church, one by one, would be guilty of breaking the Ten Commandments.

The Commandments may be set in stone, but I don't consider them as such. I want the DIRECT words of God, not something that was past down the line.

Ant.

[melon]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Jewish priests threw in on top of the laws God ordained; things such as women not speaking in church, etc.

Oh really??

1 Corinthians 14:33-35--"As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church."

1 Timothy 2:11-14--"A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed."

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 11-29-2001).]

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by melon:
Oh really??

1 Corinthians 14:33-35--"As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church."

1 Timothy 2:11-14--"A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed."
Melon

I should've said "in the temple" instead of "in teh church" because I was speaking of the Old Testament; there were laws for that, also.
But yes, these that you have quoted are also example of "cultural" mores.

[melon]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
But yes, these that you have quoted are also example of "cultural" mores.

That I completely agree with. I would not insist on ever demanding women to those extreme requirements in modern society, mostly because I don't see that as essential for faith.

Likewise, I throw the same label on prohibitions against homosexuals--"cultural mores." This, like the prohibition against women speaking in church, is not essential for faith.

Well, and I know I'm mostly speaking to the choir here, but I hope everyone, at least, understands why I would be angry in the first place.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by melon:
[BLikewise, I throw the same label on prohibitions against homosexuals--"cultural mores." This, like the prohibition against women speaking in church, is not essential for faith.[/B]

Melon, you know that I think homosexuality is wrong. However, I can also tell you that I do things I KNOW are wrong. I don't do them for the purpose of sinning, but that's neither here nor there - the point is, I sin. I don't have to, but I do. That's why I am not harder on homosexuals than I am on other sinners, including myself, because I know that ANY disobedience to God is wrong, whether it's a heterosexual doing it, or a homosexual doing it. Granted, there are sins which have much worse worldly consequences than others - for example, hurting your spouse by committing adultery, killing, stealing, and assaulting both physically and verbally. But sin is separation from God, plain and simple.

[melon]

Well, my tirade was mostly directed at my own religion, which is blissfully contradictory on the subject.

But this is where we shall disagree. Homosexuals are no more wrong than those disobedient women who dare to speak up in church (1 Tim 2:11-14) and those disobedient slaves who talk back to their masters (Tit 2:3).

But I know how often this subject comes up, and I know you're opinion, and I'm willing to leave it at that, in a respectful capacity.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by melon:
But I know how often this subject comes up, and I know your opinion, and I'm willing to leave it at that, in a respectful capacity.

Me too, me too.

[melon]

"your"

So I see you like to correct spelling too? I'm normally very good at that, but I just noticed "you're" in my previous post. Hehe...

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by melon:
with Ecclesiastes 3, my old favorite, still in contention.

Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is A Season)

Melon:

Might I suggest you explore the Episcopal Church? The national governing body has left it up to each local and state diocese (or conference, whatever they call them) as to how they implement some of the social guidelines that I think would be important to you. Granted, this is creating a schizm within the church but that is expected. Alabama's district has chosen to retain a moderate-to-conservative stance, while Florida's governing body, based in Orlando, has chosen a more liberal position on issues such as homosexuality. A side effect of the decision in Florida is that some of the conservative congregations have disassociated themselves and alligned with the Anglican Church in America.

I'm Methodist, but have Episcopal friends and I have attended their services. The style of worship seems to me to be right on the middle of Catholicism and Methodism.

~U2Alabama

[hermes]

Melon, just make sure whatever choice you make is the one God wants for you. Or at least do the best you can to make sure, you know the drill, prayer, meditation and sober, honest contemplation.

Changing the church you belong to is an important decision, I'm sure you realize that, but many people don't. I can certainly understand your frustration, but like all things, God is trying to teach you something from it. What he is trying to teach you is for you to decide.

In the end, of course, the rules and politics of the church take a far back seat to your relationship with God. But where you worship, who you worship with and the way you worship is very important as well.

I'm sure you already know all this, but I've seen many who've abandoned thier worship structure out of frustration and really hurt thier spiritual lives.

[Patti Jones]

Some Ideas for Melon:

I had the same trouble with the catholic church and I searched the followin' beliefs, anyway, i believe in all of them, just cos God is God (Allah, Jehova, Jesus, Budha, a cow, whatever, if you wanna name Him Bono, be my guest )although I like Islam the best 'cos of the way they concieve God. This is what I like best of:

Judaism: This is a REAL monotheist belief. And they have this celebrations of the miracles God has made for them wich is very sweet. It is a sweet belief.
Christianism: Well, you know this one, I made the difference between Chistianism and Catholisism because i believe in almost every little thig Jesus said and in his message, you know, "love others as much as you love yourself" but i HATE the way the catholic church missundestand the message. BTW, have you tried charismatics? They are a lot more open than Roman catholics are.
Islam: I like the personal relation they have with God. And I like the idea of a God that wants you to know yourself enought to know how much can you give, and that wont ask you more than that. Another real monotheist belief. I can talk for hours about why i find it almost perfect, but i quit here.
Buddism: They are very open minded. They once made a joint to ask themselves if Budha has really existed and they found out that it doesnt matters if he existed or not, his message is what's worthy. That should be a religion spirit.
Hare Krishna & Hinduism: In fact i find them very alike in the practice. I love their pacifist spirit and the idea of living in harmony with your sourroundings and nature.

Personal advice: Take The Books, read them (The Torah, The Bible, The Koran, there are tons of books about Krishna, Budha and all) and take your own conclusions. If you are looking for a complete idea of God it will be very usefull but keep in mind that maybe you will never find a religion that suits you perfectly.

BTW, ppl being great and having sense of comunity and great basketball team are no reasons to stay in a religion. Or take a religion, Or leave a religion. My band is great, ppl there is awsome and I know they are always going to be there for me, but we couldn't be more different in our conception of God.

Love (that's what God is after all)


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Patti
-Pride Girl-

*Religion is what happens when the spirit has left the building* U2

[This message has been edited by Patti Jones (edited 11-29-2001).]