Illegal Immigration: Where do you stand?

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.

I live in a city with a pretty large immigrant population and I've never seen any of those problems. Of course it might simply be that the US and UK are different in that respect, but I've seen more people who were born in this country behave in the manner you described than people who have come to this country as refugees or immigrants.

Edited to add: I think perhaps part of the problem is that people allow one experience to shape their entire peception of an issue. If people encounter one immigrant who was caught in criminal activity they assume all immigrants are criminals but if they hear of one British person committing a crime they assume that individual was a criminal not that all British people are criminals.

 

[Irvine511]

I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.

i live in a very immigrant heavy city, and neighborhood especially, and i cannot agree -- most of the people in my neighborhood are Salvadorans, and they tend to be very hard working, have reasonably strong families, church going, and unassuming.

the adjectives you use might be more aptly applied to the generations of urban poor who have been ghettoized, marginalized, and (in DC at least) disenfranchised in the city since Reconstruction.

 

[Liesje]

I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.

Melon

I agree (that people think that), however in my experience, the immigrants are the hardest workers who will do the most shit jobs for the longest hours at the smallest pay.

My dad's younger brother and best friend both run drywall companies and both companies are in danger because there's so many Mexican immigrants that will do the same job faster for less pay. They're both actually trying to hire these immigrants because they work so well. Typically, they all live together, get to work together and will work fast all day, only to stop once for a sandwich and a coke. The lazy ones aren't the immigrants, but the people who've never understood the value of a long day of hard work, or what it's like to have to send all your money back home to keep your relatives alive, not even knowing if they ARE still alive.

 

[melon]

That's all the more reason why we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Not all of us are contented to live and work and get paid the salaries of third-world countries. And who wins? The business owner, who gets to rake in the excessive profits.

Melon

 

[Liesje]

That's all the more reason why we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Not all of us are contented to live and work and get paid the salaries of third-world countries. And who wins? The business owner, who gets to rake in the excessive profits.

Melon

I agree, however, in the example I posted above, the business owners are only trying to hire these guys b/c if they don't, someone else will and they'll go out of business. They've been perfectly happy paying legal workers the fair wage for the past 30 years and are pretty much being forced into the whole cycle. I'm sure there are plenty who'd love to take advantage of this though.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

That's all the more reason why we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Not all of us are contented to live and work and get paid the salaries of third-world countries. And who wins? The business owner, who gets to rake in the excessive profits.

Preventing illegal immigration isn't the only solution though. How about making employment regulations stricter so that either immigrants are paid fairly (the option I prefer) or business owners who employ people who don't have the right to work in the US are penalised (which, obviously, does have the negative side-effect of leaving many immigrants without a job).

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Have you ever wondered why these people immigrate?

I am an immigrant and am lucky enough to live in one of the more tolerant countries in the world. My parents didn't decide to move from one side of the planet to the other just on a whim and I would suggest most other people do not either. They moved because the life that we were living was no longer tolerable.

Perhaps, before castigating these people for taking jobs, costing money etc, etc we should look at why they get the jobs over other people (they might have a better work ethic and yes, that age old situation of being paid less money which in reality is not their fault. Most immigrants just want a job to prove themselves and are extremely grateful for the opportunity to live a more peaceful lifestyle. I know my family felt like this and still do).

Also, it's interesting to look from the point that if you have moved away from your home, doesn't that make you an "immigrant" in the new area that you live whether or not it is in a new country or a new state or just down the road, aren't you taking someone elses job etc. That argument becomes a bit of a farce really.

Most countries have signed a UN convention (sorry if that is not the correct terminology) that they will take immigrants who are "refugees". These people, are considered "illegals" and must prove their status (I am only speaking from a brief amount of knowledge of the Australian system) to be allowed to stay in their new country. Sometimes this can take years to sort out. Personally, I think it would be tragic to have to go through this situation for that amount of time and would have to think that they are doing so because going back is a worse outcome.

I totally agree with sulawesigirl4's post regarding the ease for which we, as westerners, can move around the earth perhaps we should do so with a little more gratitude and a little more compassion for those who can not. While there will always be people who are "terrorists" and are trying to enter the country, I would suggest that this would have to be an ineffective method compared with being handed a shitload of money to get on a plane and enter the country with all the right paraphenalia to be stamped by a customs officer.

A great post . That's the thing, too, seeing it from the point of view of someone else.

In the towns I lived in back in Iowa, there was a high Mexican population. Some of the people were in gangs and caused trouble and whatnot, yes. But there were also some very nice, hard-working people there, too. It just seems odd to, as pointed out in this thread, start stereotyping all immigrants as being nothing more than troublemakers. There's good and bad in all immigrants.

Also, this country came into being in part because of immigrants. Why, then, are some so resistant to allow more? And once again, I've understood that the Mexican border is guarded more tightly than the Canadian one-if this is true, why? Wouldn't Canadians be immigrants, too? Aren't there likely some Canadians who come here illegally?

Angela

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I live in a city with a pretty large immigrant population and I've never seen any of those problems. Of course it might simply be that the US and UK are different in that respect, but I've seen more people who were born in this country behave in the manner you described than people who have come to this country as refugees or immigrants.

Edited to add: I think perhaps part of the problem is that people allow one experience to shape their entire peception of an issue. If people encounter one immigrant who was caught in criminal activity they assume all immigrants are criminals but if they hear of one British person committing a crime they assume that individual was a criminal not that all British people are criminals.

We do in fact have it differently, because in the UK, you only have some half a million illegals residing (from what I can remember in an article I read from the BBC's website recently). In the USA, that's how many enter illegally within two months. As far as some of the "Oh great, a nationalist American is whining about being the best country in the world, blah blah blah..." comments, I'm not opposed to LEGAL immigration. And when did I approach the issue as if - like it was posted without much train of thought - that I think that most/all of the illegals are bad people? Ahh, the PC police are after me.

Back to the topic, we have no idea who some of these illegals may be. Is it really far-fetched to believe that one in a million could be a throat-cutting terrorist? Here's my solution to the problem that is frankly misunderstood by the rest of the world: Increase border patrolling and take the illegals back to whichever country they came from. Secondly, if you're worried about overcrowded prisons, wouldn't you like to know that almost 30% of the prisoners are illegal aliens? Take them home. This solves numerous problems that are not being addressed by this administration. With that said, I'm sure a lot of the biased posters looking to Bush-bash will jump on this issue as if Clinton did anything about it. We haven't done hardly anything about this issue in 25 years. Reagan addressed it, but backpedalled when he should have stepped forward.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Also, this country came into being in part because of immigrants. Why, then, are some so resistant to allow more? And once again, I've understood that the Mexican border is guarded more tightly than the Canadian one-if this is true, why? Wouldn't Canadians be immigrants, too? Aren't there likely some Canadians who come here illegally?

Although Canada's border doesn't illegally import the majority of illegal drugs into the US, I am opposed to illegal immigration whether it's the Canadian Border or the Mexican border. The Canadian government has a different view, which is fine for them, after all they are much less concerned about the survival of Western civilization. They've invited many for immigration, and in my view, they haven't done enough to secure their country in the process. With their ultratolerance for anyone to settle foot in their doors (and receive as much social services as they want), I don't think it's a bad idea for us to protect that side of the border either. No double-standard.

 

[anitram]

Although Canada's border doesn't illegally import the majority of illegal drugs into the US, I am opposed to illegal immigration whether it's the Canadian Border or the Mexican border. The Canadian government has a different view, which is fine for them, after all they are much less concerned about the survival of Western civilization. They've invited many for immigration, and in my view, they haven't done enough to secure their country in the process. With their ultratolerance for anyone to settle foot in their doors (and receive as much social services as they want), I don't think it's a bad idea for us to protect that side of the border either. No double-standard.

WTF!

Less concerned about "the survival of Western civilization"? What the hell does that mean?

And BTW, thanks for exporting your illegal guns to our country. We appreciate it.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Preventing illegal immigration isn't the only solution though. How about making employment regulations stricter so that either immigrants are paid fairly (the option I prefer)

I agree with this much - but no legislation necessary but compliance with minimum wage laws and other regulations that already exist. We don't need more legislation/regulations, we just have to enforce the laws that have already been legislated for us.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

WTF!

Less concerned about "the survival of Western civilization"? What the hell does that mean?

And BTW, thanks for exporting your illegal guns to our country. We appreciate it.

I was afraid this would be misinterpreted. Let me put it in another way: less concerned about terrorist threats. No need to blow a gasket.

 

[unforgettableFOXfire]

If two Americans are competing for a job, and one is wiling to work 15 more hours a week, for $1 less pay per hour... We know who is going to get hired. The fact that they're illegal immigrants puts a different spin on it, but it isn't all harm and costs to the nation.

Illegal immigrants, yes, they provide a marginal cost saving individually, and yeah they give large corporations like WalMart a huge edge because of the large numbers involved. However, what incentive do they have to hire Americans? I mean, nationalism aside, if your stockholders (Americans) and stakeholders (also Americans) only care about the bottom line at the end of the month - that is to say, profit - then your job as a corporation is to make the most money you can to keep the investors and the people who buy your products happy. Saving money means you can do two things; put that money purely into the profit column - or you can invest it by offering loss-leader pricing sales, you can afford marginal discounts on top of the fact your costs of goods sold is low because of the quantity of inventory purchased in the first place, ultimately resulting in cheaper products for your consumers. Cheaper products encourage spending. Spending equates to stronger economy. You need to spend money to make money.

Yes, they're illegal immigrants. Yes, they're taking jobs from Americans - Americans who aren't willing to work 55 hours a week for $5. Working like that might violate workers rights laws, I'm not sure what those laws amount to in the US, but I recall there was some move by the president to force companies to pay illegal immigrants the same wages as Amiercans (which would eliminate the incentive to hire the immigrants) and there was a lot of hubbub about how the borders should be shut down and how nobody wanted illegal immigrants in the first place. Well, that's all well and good, but if you're going to run a contemporary capitalist system you can't shy away from competition, ethical or not. I mean, exploiting workers is nothing new. And after all, it is a national expectation for these companies to be profitable. If WalMart, Target, etc, weren't providing you with bargains, weren't providing you with bulk goods, would you shop there? Now, maybe the stuff that's on sale is something you don't want this week - but maybe next week it is. Someone is buying this stuff, even if it's not you. Thats what business is all about. You can't tell them to not be profitable, that would compromise all the structures on which the Western world is based. Yes, they should be expected to follow the law - but since, like the borders, it is nearly impossible to police every single business' activities (most illegal immigrants are paid under the table, right, so this won't come out in tax reports without thourough dredging), what is to be done?

Americans could still be winning those jobs, even if the companies ignored more laws by continuing to hire illegal workers, by vying for the position: working harder for less, and working illegally as an American. Right, you shouldn't have to stoop so low as to waive your workers rights and get paid under the table just to have a job instead of being unemployed. Of course, maybe you'd prefer to be unemployed and just complain about the illegal immigrants taking your jobs because you're unwilling to do what they are. Those immigrants and their desperation for work and living conditions that aren't total crap, they should just sod off because even if they won't respect the laws of the US and that doesn't mean you should sully yourself by breaking the law - after all, if you live by the law, the country owes you something, right? I'm not so sure that it does. Even if there were no illegal immigrants, your country couldn't guaruntee you a job. They cannot force someone to hire you. And after all, if you're an American working illegally (that is to say, ignoring your workers rights and workign for less than minimum wage, or for more hours per week than is permitted) you aren't going to be the one thrown in jail: that's your employers responsibility.

It is an expectation that all people find work, yes, but is it a right, that all Americans will have jobs? I don't think so. With all the outsourcing of labour that occurs in the US in the name of profits there are a lot of American jobs that aren't being done in America to begin with. Mostly blue collar stuff. It leaves most of the mundane physical work that has to be done on site and can't be done elsewhere: road work, waiting tables, cashier roles, loading and unloading trucks, etc. If the sum total of your life after being born in the US, with all the amenities that the greatest country in the world can provide, is working in WalMart as a cashier, or mopping up the crapper at Denny's, I mean no disrespect when I say you don't deserve the jobs that people are taking from you. Theres a certain level of expectation here not that you'll find a job but that you'll be competent enough as a human being to excell above the lowest of the blue collar levels and work a real job, you aren't going to be given anything if you don't work for it, and checking out soccer moms at WalMart should not be a long-term career plan. If you're a tradesperson, a skilled labourer, that's fine, that is real honest work, and I make no attack on those people. If you're a cashier, or a cook at McDonalds, and that is your life... I'm not sure I'd say it's noble and honourable work, but at the very least it is work and worthy of some measure of respect. The thing is, I find it hard to sympathize with people who have settled and aren't willing to try for anything else and all the while aren't happy with it. If you're happy with what you've got, wonderful, thats incredibly admirable and rare regardless of where it is you are and what it is you do. I'll add that if you are indeed happy doing what you do, then you are probably willing to do it for less money if it meant keeping your job instead of going elsewhere to work one you hated. However, it's not always easy to find a job, but it sure is easy to give up and blame someone else because you can't be bothered to do what other people will. I have far less sympathy for people who are chronic whiners with a lazy streak a mile wide, and just like the illegal immigrants who are perceived as harmful criminals take the publics eye, I believe it is only the chronic whiners amongst the Americans who have the publics ear and are making that problem seem far larger than it is.

 

[shart1780]

Well, they're criminals... maybe we should treat them as such.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Well, they're criminals... maybe we should treat them as such.

That's really kind. And compassionate. I also prefer to forget that many ilegals are running from lives so dire, we have absolutely no concept of what they experience. These are ordinary people who are hungry, scared and simply want to either die, or get a small sliver of a better life for themselves and their children. Do you understand that desperation? Of course, not all illegals are in this situation. Some are simply marching along looking for any easy way out of their garden variety poverty or circumstance. Actually, we could spend all day writing up scenarios on particular examples. Truth is, they're still good and bad, still just like the rest of us. What bothers me is this haste to treat the first lot I described as criminals when they are desperate ordinary people who were forced by their own miserable environments to break the law.

Where is the goddamned compassion from some of you people?

 

[melon]

Well, they're criminals... maybe we should treat them as such.

That certainly sounds like Bush's "compassionate conservatism" to me.

Melon

 

[Angela Harlem]

You're stereotyping, melon!

 

[Sonoftelepunk]

I think we should just let any immigrants who want to come here do so. If they're good, hard-working citizens, they stay. If they start causing trouble, they get punished/sent back.

If you deport the rabble rousers and the borders are open, there's nothing stopping them from coming back in.

Your solution is simple. It simply ensures that uselessness is the motto of the immigration philosophy you support.

 

[financeguy]

Macfisto, Melon, Shart1780 and anyone else on this thread who has bitched about immigrants, it seems that a solution to your problems is in sight, given the obvious incompetence of the authorities of the USA in dealing with the recent hurricane, i.e. who would want to immigrate to a country that treats its poor citizens like dirt?

Personally I have no desire to immigrate to the USA any time soon, I would rather immigrate to Guatemala to be honest.

And Melon, I thought you were brighter than that. Unless I misintrepreted your post, I'm truly disappointed that you've bought into this anti-immigrant bullshitology.

In five years time, if the USA keeps going the way it has been, no-one with a free choice will want to live in the USA, unless the people of the USA do the right thing and impeach Bush/Cheney.

 

[financeguy]

What is the colour of your skin again? As I thought, you are not a native of your country either.

I would recommend you read sulawesigirl4's post again and reconsider.

You have hit the nail on the head here, every single one on the people that have bitched about immigrants on this thread are themselves descended from immigrants.


The hypocrisy is honestly staggering.


Next time I need an emetic, I'll log onto FYM and read one of these threads about immigration, 'cos I'm honestly about to puke. I'll leave my comments about the issue at that, cos if you insult another member you get banned, but it's ok to insult an entire race of people seemingly (unless you insult Americans, that's a big no-no on here).

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

If you deport the rabble rousers and the borders are open, there's nothing stopping them from coming back in.

Not necessarily. If we either send them back and let their own government punish them appropriately, or we keep them here and put them in jail, or something along those lines, it'll be at least a bit harder for them to go back on the streets and commit more crimes, if not impossible.

Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
Your solution is simple. It simply ensures that uselessness is the motto of the immigration philosophy you support.

...uh, no...how do you get that ?

Angela

 

[melon]

Personally I have no desire to immigrate to the USA any time soon, I would rather immigrate to Guatemala to be honest.

And Melon, I thought you were brighter than that. Unless I misintrepreted your post, I'm truly disappointed that you've bought into this anti-immigrant bullshitology.

In five years time, if the USA keeps going the way it has been, no-one with a free choice will want to live in the USA, unless the people of the USA do the right thing and impeach Bush/Cheney.

I believe in legal immigration, which I have no problem being loosened...as long as immigration laws in places like Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. are loosened enough that I could go there just as easily. Absent that from happening, the U.S. isn't a charity, and the solution to the world's problems is not having everyone move here. On the contrary, it gives people like Mexican President Fox an excuse to sit back and do nothing in their own damn country.

And illegal immigration isn't a panacea to everyone's problems either. Without them being legal, what's the point of following any other laws with them? And there's the problem. Many employers that willingly hire illegal immigrants pay less than minimum wage and ignore all labor laws that we've taken for granted the last 100 years. Plus, none of these people pay taxes, and, yet, still demand full social services. If I jumped to any country illegally, I'm pretty sure I'd get deported with no social services, so why should the U.S. be a charity?

Oh and to let you know, in five years time, Bush/Cheney will no longer be in office. That's what term limits are for.

Melon

 

[Sonoftelepunk]

Not necessarily. If we either send them back and let their own government punish them appropriately, or we keep them here and put them in jail, or something along those lines, it'll be at least a bit harder for them to go back on the streets and commit more crimes, if not impossible.

Angela

That's the thing, the Mexican government isn't doing anything about it. They won't care if we deport them to their country. We already do. They don't imprison them. Are you just hoping they will do the right thing? Such works in a fairytale world, but rarely is it ever so here.

What is the point of waiting for illegal immigrants to come into the country and commit crimes before they're punished? Entering the US illegally is a crime. Once they come across the border, they have broken the law. They don't care that it's a crime. The only solution is to tighten the border security, so we don't have to play catch-up later and arrest them when they're further in the country.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

That's the thing, the Mexican government isn't doing anything about it. They won't care if we deport them to their country. We already do. They don't imprison them. Are you just hoping they will do the right thing? Such works in a fairytale world, but rarely is it ever so here.

I understand some areas are very lax about punishments for those who come back into their borders, but there may be some areas where people will give the appropriate punishments. Keep in mind, after all, the U.S. has made some blunders in regards to jailing people, too. Nobody's perfect.

And besides that, okay, again, if we don't want to deport them back to their country because of things like that, then we can put them in jail here. Problem solved.

Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
What is the point of waiting for illegal immigrants to come into the country and commit crimes before they're punished? Entering the US illegally is a crime. Once they come across the border, they have broken the law.

Well, that's what I'm saying, we shouldn't have such a thing as illegal immigration to begin with. Why can't we just let people come in who want to come in, why do we have to make it so tough for people? It just seems stupid to me to suggest we tighten the borders, 'cause it just makes it seem like we assume they're all going to come here and cause trouble. Some do, some don't. So why not just make all immigration legal, let people come here, and if someone causes trouble, we find a way to deal with them, and if someone doesn't cause trouble, then we leave them be?

It's just that, you know, we talk all the time about how this is the land of opportunity and freedom. We pride ourselves on those things. And yet we want to restrict our borders to immigrants? Pardon me if that comes off as a bit confusing to me.

Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
They don't care that it's a crime.

Well, some people aren't necessarily able to go the legal route for various reasons, which has been discussed in this thread. If you're fleeing a war-torn country, for instance, going through a bunch of red tape to get here legally may not be your first concern. You just want to get somewhere safe.

And again, I just don't think we should make it so restrictive to begin with. This wouldn't be a crime, wouldn't be a concern, if we made immigration in general legal and not so restrictive.

Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
The only solution is to tighten the border security, so we don't have to play catch-up later and arrest them when they're further in the country.

But by tightening the boarders more, you'd just be getting more illegal immigrants. It wouldn't stop anything. The more restrictive things are, the more likely people are to rebel and break the law.

Angela

 

[Sonoftelepunk]

Well, that's what I'm saying, we shouldn't have such a thing as illegal immigration to begin with. Why can't we just let people come in who want to come in, why do we have to make it so tough for people? It just seems stupid to me to suggest we tighten the borders, 'cause it just makes it seem like we assume they're all going to come here and cause trouble. Some do, some don't. So why not just make all immigration legal, let people come here, and if someone causes trouble, we find a way to deal with them, and if someone doesn't cause trouble, then we leave them be?

It's just that, you know, we talk all the time about how this is the land of opportunity and freedom. We pride ourselves on those things. And yet we want to restrict our borders to immigrants? Pardon me if that comes off as a bit confusing to me.



Well, some people aren't necessarily able to go the legal route for various reasons, which has been discussed in this thread. If you're fleeing a war-torn country, for instance, going through a bunch of red tape to get here legally may not be your first concern. You just want to get somewhere safe.

And again, I just don't think we should make it so restrictive to begin with. This wouldn't be a crime, wouldn't be a concern, if we made immigration in general legal and not so restrictive.



But by tightening the boarders more, you'd just be getting more illegal immigrants. It wouldn't stop anything. The more restrictive things are, the more likely people are to rebel and break the law.

Angela

There is a point to having border restrictions. It is mostly a security reason. It always has been. Way before 9/11 it was the motivation behind having a secure border. If there had never been any restrictions, I can assure you there would be no countries in the world. They would have all been destroyed by armies, terrorists, and disorgaization. It is crucial to know who is coming into the country, how many there are, and where they are coming from. With an open border, security would be gone.

If people are fleeing from a war torn country, they are processed before they legally are allowed in the country. That doesn't mean they are shut out and not taken care of. Many nations that have adopted refugees have cared for them before admitting them officially. So it's not like there's an excuse to enter illegally on your own will when you're fleeing from war.

If there was a fear of more illegal immigrants coming over the border with tighter security it would be completely irrational. That's like saying we shouldn't have more police on the streets because that will make crime go up. It makes no sense.