Illegal Aliens Murder 12 Americans Daily

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AEON said:
I see several posts that advocate a secure border, however, I would imagine these same folks are against a fence, more Border Patrol agents, or a National Guard presence along the border. They would also probably consider it racist to do such things (because if you don't agree with the Left - you are automatically a racist, bigot, or homophobe).

Saying you want a secure border is one thing. Actually doing something to secure it is another.


"You would imagine" what you imagine because if it were any other way, perhaps your politics just flat out wouldn't make sense anymore.

Is your entire foundation of ideas based on assumptions and generalizations about those who might oppose your ideas?
 
AEON said:


It is simple. We need a fence, more Border Patrol, and the National Guard.



considering our National Guard units are building fences in Iraq and Afghanistan, where do you propose we get people to build it?

:shh: i hear Mexicans work real cheap
 
Irvine511 said:




considering our National Guard units are building fences in Iraq and Afghanistan, where do you propose we get people to build it?

:shh: i hear Mexicans work real cheap

We can certainly use the money we would save from stopping the illegal immigration tsumani to build the fence.

I'm sure there are quite a few National Guardsman who wouldn't mind be stationed stateside for a year.
 
U2DMfan said:
Is your entire foundation of ideas based on assumptions and generalizations about those who might oppose your ideas?

The thing that bothers me, and why I don't engage in more debates here in FYM, is that virtually everyone has agreed that illegal immigration is an issue. Only one has come out in favor of it. So we have some common ground, right? Nope. Just the regular shell game, between the same cast of characters, and it sucks.

Now that I've vented :rant: , here are my ideas:

1. The best barrier, an invisible one, is to seriously crack down on American companies employing undocumented workers. Meaningful fines, penalties, whatever. I think the idea of no jobs would discourage illegals from crossing.
2. Temporary worker permits.
3. More border patrol agents in the field.
4. Increase electronic surveillance to allow agents to do their job more efficiently.
5. Walls should not be ruled out. Placed in strategic locations I believe it would help agents narrow the vast territory they must monitor. But a wall all the way from Texas to SoCal is ridiculous and ineffective.

Long term, the Mexican economy needs to get itself in gear. And the government quit looking the other way as their people flood across the border, and wire their paychecks from the states back home. That's for another post though, and it's a decades long project.

Finally, for the illegals already here, I don't see any option other than a plan you might as well call "amnesty." Bush didn't call his failed proposal amnesty, and no serious politician will. But they need to come up with a fancy name for it, and get it done. And it will amount to amnesty.
 
I know where you can get the knowledge on how to build this wall. ;)

mauer-skizze-largeghq.gif


Seriously, modern border control doesn't need to rely on this antiquated method.
 
Bluer White said:
The thing that bothers me, and why I don't engage in more debates here in FYM, is that virtually everyone has agreed that illegal immigration is an issue. Only one has come out in favor of it. So we have some common ground, right? Nope. Just the regular shell game, between the same cast of characters, and it sucks.
Yup.
Now that I've vented :rant: , here are my ideas:

1. The best barrier, an invisible one, is to seriously crack down on American companies employing undocumented workers. Meaningful fines, penalties, whatever. I think the idea of no jobs would discourage illegals from crossing.
2. Temporary worker permits.
3. More border patrol agents in the field.
4. Increase electronic surveillance to allow agents to do their job more efficiently.
5. Walls should not be ruled out. Placed in strategic locations I believe it would help agents narrow the vast territory they must monitor. But a wall all the way from Texas to SoCal is ridiculous and ineffective.

Long term, the Mexican economy needs to get itself in gear. And the government quit looking the other way as their people flood across the border, and wire their paychecks from the states back home. That's for another post though, and it's a decades long project.

Finally, for the illegals already here, I don't see any option other than a plan you might as well call "amnesty." Bush didn't call his failed proposal amnesty, and no serious politician will. But they need to come up with a fancy name for it, and get it done. And it will amount to amnesty.
:up: In tandem with streamlining the citizenship application process, I can agree with all of this.
 
No problem with any of that. Practical, maybe doable.
 
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BonosSaint said:
No problem with any of that. Practical, maybe doable.

I'm basically in agreement with these - with the understanding the border is closed first. To me, that is a necessary first step.

Now - why can't we get Congress and President to actually do these things?
 
AEON said:


I'm basically in agreement with these - with the understanding the border is closed first. To me, that is a necessary first step.

Now - why can't we get Congress and President to actually do these things?

Do you realize the effects of building a wall? as you propose...
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Care to clarify?
You wouldn't be employing labour that wasn't legally here (of course) and in terms of building structures for defending the territorial and ethnic integrity of a nation if it could be done by various dynasties in China why not in the USA?
 
Gotcha...






The defending "ethnic integrity" is very interesting, I do think it's part of the issue, though no one would admit to this.

Anyone who I've had this discussion with in person or at great lengths online has at least once in anger slipped and let a racial slur pass...
 
Your country has the situation where it actually has large numbers of people entering, Australia however has no land borders with other countries and the government has been able to be match the pitch equally.
 
totally - Australia is heading down the "pick and choose" track of yesteryear with this new "survey" that tests people's knowledge - i understand a little understanding but when people who are australian born don't know they answer - how unfair to the immigrants?

Although i'm sure illegal immigrants cause problems - if they were all rounded up and kicked out, America would crumble and grind to a halt.
I think you're increasing violent society is not "racial" bound and is something that needs a lot of thought on...
 
A_Wanderer said:
Why would you need to close the border if there are no longer any reasons to go to, or stay in America?

I think Bush understood that some years back and decided it was easier to run down the economy instead of waiting for an economic rise of Central America. ;)

I can agree with Bluer White's proposal very much, though I'm uncomfortable with any wall or fence between two countries.
 
AEON said:


I'm basically in agreement with these - with the understanding the border is closed first. To me, that is a necessary first step.

Now - why can't we get Congress and President to actually do these things?


Thank you. I'd really like to prove Bluer White wrong, and show that we can have an intelligent discussion on these issues rather than the usual "shell game."

So, in that spirit, what do you mean when say that closing the border is the first step? Are you talking about stopping ALL immigration between the U.S. and Mexico? Because halting legal immigration certainly wouldn't do anything to stem the tide of illegal immigration.

Or are you referring to building a wall? I think the effectiveness and appropriateness of such a measure can be debated without returning to the "you want an open border" nonsense.

And another question? Why do YOU think we can't get Congress and the President to do actually do these things?

I tend to think to think this debate is so heightened with emotion and aspersions (sometimes well founded, sometimes not) about the "true agenda" of the opposing side. I don't know that the answers are easy but I have a feeling people tend to oppose some of the ideas on immigration reform not on the merits of the ideas but on assumptions about the "real motives" and attitudes of those promoting the various reforms.
 
martha said:


The environmental consequences alone... :crack:

The environment along many parts of the border is thrashed from the immigrants. I think the wall or fence would probably help.
 
Vincent Vega said:




I can agree with Bluer White's proposal very much, though I'm uncomfortable with any wall or fence between two countries.

How else would you secure it? I think having some National Guard and extra BP can only do so much.
 
So to clarify, then, that's what this debate is really about then?

Should we build a wall or not?

I don't know, personally. I'd want to know more about the issues. I do think I would disagree with anyone who says that building a wall is some sort of inherent racist statement. I don't think it is.

I also tend to think a wall sounds a little impractical and simplistic as a solution though. What modern examples do we have of a wall of this magnitude (I think we're well past the age where something along the lines of the Great Wall of China would be effective)? Are there more effective and less expensive ways to curb illegal immigration or is the wall really the ONLY way and will it really work?

(And aren't there already walls or "fences" at certain points along the border already?)
 
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