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Old 10-06-2007, 12:05 AM   #201
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Do you realize the effects of building a wall? as you propose...
The environmental consequences alone...
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:15 AM   #202
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Care to clarify?
You wouldn't be employing labour that wasn't legally here (of course) and in terms of building structures for defending the territorial and ethnic integrity of a nation if it could be done by various dynasties in China why not in the USA?
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:29 AM   #203
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Gotcha...






The defending "ethnic integrity" is very interesting, I do think it's part of the issue, though no one would admit to this.

Anyone who I've had this discussion with in person or at great lengths online has at least once in anger slipped and let a racial slur pass...
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:57 AM   #204
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Your country has the situation where it actually has large numbers of people entering, Australia however has no land borders with other countries and the government has been able to be match the pitch equally.
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Old 10-06-2007, 05:45 AM   #205
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totally - Australia is heading down the "pick and choose" track of yesteryear with this new "survey" that tests people's knowledge - i understand a little understanding but when people who are australian born don't know they answer - how unfair to the immigrants?

Although i'm sure illegal immigrants cause problems - if they were all rounded up and kicked out, America would crumble and grind to a halt.
I think you're increasing violent society is not "racial" bound and is something that needs a lot of thought on...
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Old 10-06-2007, 06:19 AM   #206
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Why would you need to close the border if there are no longer any reasons to go to, or stay in America?
I think Bush understood that some years back and decided it was easier to run down the economy instead of waiting for an economic rise of Central America.

I can agree with Bluer White's proposal very much, though I'm uncomfortable with any wall or fence between two countries.
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Old 10-06-2007, 09:48 AM   #207
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I'm basically in agreement with these - with the understanding the border is closed first. To me, that is a necessary first step.

Now - why can't we get Congress and President to actually do these things?

Thank you. I'd really like to prove Bluer White wrong, and show that we can have an intelligent discussion on these issues rather than the usual "shell game."

So, in that spirit, what do you mean when say that closing the border is the first step? Are you talking about stopping ALL immigration between the U.S. and Mexico? Because halting legal immigration certainly wouldn't do anything to stem the tide of illegal immigration.

Or are you referring to building a wall? I think the effectiveness and appropriateness of such a measure can be debated without returning to the "you want an open border" nonsense.

And another question? Why do YOU think we can't get Congress and the President to do actually do these things?

I tend to think to think this debate is so heightened with emotion and aspersions (sometimes well founded, sometimes not) about the "true agenda" of the opposing side. I don't know that the answers are easy but I have a feeling people tend to oppose some of the ideas on immigration reform not on the merits of the ideas but on assumptions about the "real motives" and attitudes of those promoting the various reforms.
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Old 10-06-2007, 09:55 AM   #208
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Originally posted by martha


The environmental consequences alone...
The environment along many parts of the border is thrashed from the immigrants. I think the wall or fence would probably help.
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:02 AM   #209
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega




I can agree with Bluer White's proposal very much, though I'm uncomfortable with any wall or fence between two countries.
How else would you secure it? I think having some National Guard and extra BP can only do so much.
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:14 AM   #210
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So to clarify, then, that's what this debate is really about then?

Should we build a wall or not?

I don't know, personally. I'd want to know more about the issues. I do think I would disagree with anyone who says that building a wall is some sort of inherent racist statement. I don't think it is.

I also tend to think a wall sounds a little impractical and simplistic as a solution though. What modern examples do we have of a wall of this magnitude (I think we're well past the age where something along the lines of the Great Wall of China would be effective)? Are there more effective and less expensive ways to curb illegal immigration or is the wall really the ONLY way and will it really work?

(And aren't there already walls or "fences" at certain points along the border already?)
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:15 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


The environment along many parts of the border is thrashed from the immigrants. I think the wall or fence would probably help.
I was thinking of migratory animals. Can you give some examples of how the immigrants have trashed it?
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:28 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean



So, in that spirit, what do you mean when say that closing the border is the first step? Are you talking about stopping ALL immigration between the U.S. and Mexico? Because halting legal immigration certainly wouldn't do anything to stem the tide of illegal immigration.
I am referring to illegal immigration.

Quote:
Or are you referring to building a wall? I think the effectiveness and appropriateness of such a measure can be debated without returning to the "you want an open border" nonsense.
I am referring to a wall, fence, drone planes...I don't think the American public will accept any form of amnesty and business enforcement unless the flood of illegal immigrants is stopped. Then I think the public would be more likely to discuss amnesty and a path to citizenship for those already here. I know I would be. Unless we stop the illegal immigrants at the border, most Conservatives will think it is just another 1986 smoke and mirrors legislation.

Quote:
And another question? Why do YOU think we can't get Congress and the President to do actually do these things?
This is a bit of a mystery. I am sure it has to do with the corruption of both parties (payoffs from those execs and private financiers that benefit the most from all of this...always follow the money...or power). It may also have to do with equating a fence to the Berlin Wall and INS to the Gestapo.

Quote:
I tend to think to think this debate is so heightened with emotion and aspersions (sometimes well founded, sometimes not) about the "true agenda" of the opposing side. I don't know that the answers are easy but I have a feeling people tend to oppose some of the ideas on immigration reform not on the merits of the ideas but on assumptions about the "real motives" and attitudes of those promoting the various reforms.
True, when I occasionally discuss this issue in Northern California, those that wanted to stop illegal immigration are often assumed to be some sort of racist.
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:30 AM   #213
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Well, I have to admit my knowledge about the immigration problem from Central America via the Mexican border isn't deep enough to grasp the complexity entirely, and I'm sure such a long border is hard to be overseen on its whole (we can't do it here in Europe either, but als wouldn't ever plan on building walls again), so I can just express my view that I feel that a wall or fence is the worst possible thing a country can do to its neighbours and itself.

I would say that a wall/fence wouldn't be the answer to the problem as the people who organise the illegal immigration will find ways to get the people though anyways. Also the costs of building this wall surely could be invest in measures to tackle the problems your neighbour economies are struggling with, though it of course can't be done by the US itself, that's for sure.

Is there any reliable source on an estimate how much it would cost to secure the border that way. Such data for example would be helpful for a serious discussion, though my personal reluctance for accepting a wall would certainly remain. (Not any "think tank" or minutemen propaganda website or any other source with its own political agenda would be nice).
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:33 AM   #214
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Originally posted by AEON
True, when I occasionally discuss this issue in Northern California, those that wanted to stop illegal immigration are often assumed to be some sort of racist.
One must watch what one says if one doesn't like being called racist. Posting propaganda like the kind that started this thread, continually calling out "Mexicans" as the major problem (when one has been repeatedly reeminded that illegal immigrants are from many other countries) can make others suspect one's motives.
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:35 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
I can just express my view that I feel that a wall or fence is the worst possible thing a country can do to its neighbours and itself.
I really don't want to live in a country that has to build a wall to keep the poor out. There has to be a better solution.
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:10 AM   #216
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A trench?
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:43 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


True, when I occasionally discuss this issue in Northern California, those that wanted to stop illegal immigration are often assumed to be some sort of racist.
Maybe it's the way you discussed it...
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:53 PM   #218
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A trench?
No, no, a MOAT! With a dragon!!
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:55 PM   #219
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No, no, a MOAT! With a dragon!!
Do you have an actual suggestion other than a fence/wall?
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Old 10-06-2007, 01:22 PM   #220
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I don't believe a fence/wall is practicable for a border of that length (or that terrain). It may be useful to bridge some short spans (although this raises the question of whether you want the Berlin Wall in your backyard). I don't know that I'm particularly opposed to some sections of the wall, even if I do think it would be preferrable not to have one at all.

So if it's impractical in its entirety, then the question is what else can you do? I'm by no means an expert as to what kind of manpower would be necessary to patrol the areas and so on, but these are things that should all be looked at.

And if you want to close the border, then I would not support any of it unless you also, at the same time, repealed the laws which permit Cubans to be given exile once they land on your shores. Frankly, the double standard smacks of political expediency.
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