If you don't support Bush you are morally and intellectually confused

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Maoilbheannacht said:


But Don Rumsfeld is not attacking people in the way that he or the President are often attacked. He is for a policy of robust intervention in the world as opposed to one that uses only carrots to try to prod people to cooperate. Its a valid point. World War I was terrible for Europe, and produced a climate where the great Powers were unwilling to step up and intervene at times that would have prevented World War II and the deaths of 59 million people. Thats an extreme example of course, but it does fit the context of the debate about when and where the United States should intervene in the world, and for how long it needs to stay in certain places.



no. way. he is absolutely attacking people in the manner in which he is attacked, and he's still not as bad as Cheney who outright says that if you don't vote for Republicans than you will be killed by terrorists. these men are responsible for taking the biggest national tragedy of the past 100 years, 9-11, and wielding it like a bludgeon to scare the crap out of the American people for successive election cycles (what a gift to Bush, it has been, with no 9-11 i'll bet you dollars to donuts we'd have a democrat victorious in 2004 as Bush had nothing but a tax cut to run on).

what Rumsfeld has tried to do is remake the Pentagon in his own image and fight two wars on the basis of his own strategy rather than the strategy that was necessary to win. what Rumsfeld wanted to prove was that the US could send in forces lightning quick and topple governments anywhere and everywhere, and then with minimum blood and treasure lost, rebuild societies. Iraq was supposed to be quick an easy. Iran and Syria were next.

sadly, reality has caught up to Rumsfeld and he has refused to abandon his paranoid outlook -- coined, "just enough troops to lose" -- as tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of Iraqis have been slaughtered as have thousands of US troops.
 
Maoilbheannacht said:


This is a serious policy debate, not an attempt to ridicule anyone. He did not speak in terms that I would find unbecoming of a "figure of authority". I understand why people are attacking him on this, but it would be better if they engaged on the issue rather than implying that he said this or that and focusing on HIM as opposed to what the United States should actually do.

It would be refreshing in this country if the opposition actually spent more time offering solutions and idea's for the country as opposed to the unrelenting attacks on people in office.

You're seriously contradicting yourself here. If you want serious debate, the discussion should begin with the White House, if they start with attacks, they are showing they aren't willing to discuss, in fact this administration has always been like this.
 
Irvine511 said:




no. way. he is absolutely attacking people in the manner in which he is attacked, and he's still not as bad as Cheney who outright says that if you don't vote for Republicans than you will be killed by terrorists. these men are responsible for taking the biggest national tragedy of the past 100 years, 9-11, and wielding it like a bludgeon to scare the crap out of the American people for successive election cycles (what a gift to Bush, it has been, with no 9-11 i'll bet you dollars to donuts we'd have a democrat victorious in 2004 as Bush had nothing but a tax cut to run on).

what Rumsfeld has tried to do is remake the Pentagon in his own image and fight two wars on the basis of his own strategy rather than the strategy that was necessary to win. what Rumsfeld wanted to prove was that the US could send in forces lightning quick and topple governments anywhere and everywhere, and then with minimum blood and treasure lost, rebuild societies. Iraq was supposed to be quick an easy. Iran and Syria were next.

sadly, reality has caught up to Rumsfeld and he has refused to abandon his paranoid outlook -- coined, "just enough troops to lose" -- as tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of Iraqis have been slaughtered as have thousands of US troops.

Its wishful think of democrats that Bush would have been easily defeated in 2004 without 9-11. After all, the man was elected in 2000 during the best economic times this country has ever seen.

The military is supposed to be able to fight and win two wars at once at a minimum. Thats not a new strategy. Nation building is more difficult, but the United States has already been apart of that task in such places as Bosnia and Kosovo.

I don't see anything that would show that the United States had any plans to invade either Iran or Syria, except in terms of normal military planning, where plans are usually developed for military operations on every part of the planet regardless of the current political situation.

The United States had already fought a huge war with Iraq in 1991 and was still bombing the country every year when Bush entered office. In contrast, the United States has never launched any sort of military action against Syria, unless there was something in 1983 when the Beruit Marine Barracks were bombed. The United States did launch a military operation to rescue its hostages held by Iran, I think in 1980, but it was aborted before they really got into it.

Rumsfeld came to the Pentagon more interested in cleaning up the way things were done in terms of administration. He also wanted to skip a generation of technology and equip the military with new high tech hardware no supposed to come online until 2020. These were his goals coming in, 9/11 and Iraq have effectively ruined them. Some might say that is not such a bad thing is there was definitely resistence in the Pentagon to this type of change.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


You're seriously contradicting yourself here. If you want serious debate, the discussion should begin with the White House, if they start with attacks, they are showing they aren't willing to discuss, in fact this administration has always been like this.

Well, maybe what you construe as an attack is not one. Any serious discussion must involve a discussion of the options and why this or that option is bad for the country as opposed to the option they think will work best.
 
Maoilbheannacht said:


Its wishful think of democrats that Bush would have been easily defeated in 2004 without 9-11. After all, the man was elected in 2000 during the best economic times this country has ever seen.

The military is supposed to be able to fight and win two wars at once at a minimum. Thats not a new strategy. Nation building is more difficult, but the United States has already been apart of that task in such places as Bosnia and Kosovo.

I don't see anything that would show that the United States had any plans to invade either Iran or Syria, except in terms of normal military planning, where plans are usually developed for military operations on every part of the planet regardless of the current political situation.

The United States had already fought a huge war with Iraq in 1991 and was still bombing the country every year when Bush entered office. In contrast, the United States has never launched any sort of military action against Syria, unless there was something in 1983 when the Beruit Marine Barracks were bombed. The United States did launch a military operation to rescue its hostages held by Iran, I think in 1980, but it was aborted before they really got into it.

Rumsfeld came to the Pentagon more interested in cleaning up the way things were done in terms of administration. He also wanted to skip a generation of technology and equip the military with new high tech hardware no supposed to come online until 2020. These were his goals coming in, 9/11 and Iraq have effectively ruined them. Some might say that is not such a bad thing is there was definitely resistence in the Pentagon to this type of change.



fess up. are you STING2?
 
Irvine511 said:




fess up. are you STING2?

I used to be apart of the rock band Police. But then I went solo and became interested in the rainforest and its destruction. I don't recall working for Donald Rumsfeld though.:laugh: Yes, I'm Sting and your Bono. Maybe someone else here could be BoyGeorge.
 
Fascism, the new GOP buzzword


http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/30/gop.fascism.ap/index.html

"Charles Black, a longtime GOP consultant with close ties to both the first Bush administration and the current White House, said branding Islamic extremists as fascists is apt.

"It helps dramatize what we're up against. They are not just some ragtag terrorists. They are people with a plan to take over the world and eliminate everybody except them," Black said.

Stephen J. Wayne, a professor of government at Georgetown University, suggested White House strategists "probably had a focus group and they found the word `fascist.'

"Most people are against fascists of whatever form. By definition, fascists are bad. If you're going to demonize, you might as well use the toughest words you can," Wayne said."
 
Maoilbheannacht said:


I used to be apart of the rock band Police. But then I went solo and became interested in the rainforest and its destruction. I don't recall working for Donald Rumsfeld though.:laugh: Yes, I'm Sting and your Bono. Maybe someone else here could be BoyGeorge.



i'll take that as a maybe ... :shifty:
 
What this arrogant bastard fails to understand is that while he right on princliple (yes, we DO face an enemy that dangerous; we should not underestimate militant Islam, and America needs to be fully alerted to this fact, in a rational way, not with viscious progaganda..but then, with the headlinesthese days I think we are slowly startimg to wake up from our Wal-Mart induced slumber) the fact is, he and his ilk are the WRONG ARMY to fight this war. They have made things worse, on several fronts. It began long before 9/11 and even if it hadn't, thier policies have been the wrong way to fight it. From a strictly miltary POV, they have been a curse to this country. They are like General McLellen in the Civil War, treating our army like fragile eggshells in one circumstance, then burchering them in others...ann Lincoln was not afriad to get rid of him...but it isn't just the Lt general wrong in this case, or the Dept of War, but the whole regime.

In the past, when things went wrong, we replaced faulty miltary leaders who muddled things and made them worse. Not this time. This is the point that most anti-war people are trying to make--not that to fight "terror" is wrong, but that we are fighting it the wrong way, and we have to get the right people in power to get back on track. This is the point many in the nati-war moverment are trying to make, but of course, the media know which side their bread is buttered on. Try to even get a minute in magazine, let alone on TV.

I'm glad I didn't read the article, I would puke if I did. History is already starting to prove how they were the wrong men for the right time. To hear them, you'd think there was no alternative....and the fact that they aren't even legitimately in power in the first place, will historians ever fully be able to grasp the utter TRAGEDY of this travesty?

Let Bush's supporters gloat now, but ther children will be paying the price for his stupidity, on several fronts. They already are.
 
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Maoilbheannacht said:


Well, if thats definitely the case, the President would not have won the election in 2004, and we would of had a Democratically controlled congress by 2002.

Imagine if we get to January 20, 2009 with still a Republican congress and a Republican in the White House. It may be the first undefeated run for a President and his party since at least Roosevelt, if ever.

I was reading in Investor's Business Daily about some vulnerable Republicans in Indiana. If three of their congressmen lose, the Democrats could very well take the House back. When I look at the 2004 election, I don't think it's as much a case of success on Bush's part as much as it was a Kerry failure. Bush's margin of victory was the smallest for an incumbent since 1916. If the Dems get the House back it could get in the way of several Bush policies.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
Fascism, the new GOP buzzword


http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/30/gop.fascism.ap/index.html

"Charles Black, a longtime GOP consultant with close ties to both the first Bush administration and the current White House, said branding Islamic extremists as fascists is apt.

"It helps dramatize what we're up against. They are not just some ragtag terrorists. They are people with a plan to take over the world and eliminate everybody except them," Black said.

Stephen J. Wayne, a professor of government at Georgetown University, suggested White House strategists "probably had a focus group and they found the word `fascist.'

"Most people are against fascists of whatever form. By definition, fascists are bad. If you're going to demonize, you might as well use the toughest words you can," Wayne said."

The way it's thrown around in here, I agree.

Never mind that the Islamofascist movement actually conforms to the defining characteristics of fascism, as opposed to the careless way it's casually tossed around in this forum...

Does that article have an actual point?
 
verte76 said:


I was reading in Investor's Business Daily about some vulnerable Republicans in Indiana. If three of their congressmen lose, the Democrats could very well take the House back. When I look at the 2004 election, I don't think it's as much a case of success on Bush's part as much as it was a Kerry failure. Bush's margin of victory was the smallest for an incumbent since 1916. If the Dems get the House back it could get in the way of several Bush policies.

Actually, his percentage margin of victory for an incumbent was the smallest ever. But, remember that many incumbents are often defeated in Presidential elections and many choose not to run again, often because they know they will be defeated. Still, a win is a win.

In terms of making predictions, does anyone know if there are betting odds on any House races or which party will have control of the House when its all said and done?:wink:
 
Maoilbheannacht said:



In terms of making predictions, does anyone know if there are betting odds on any House races or which party will have control of the House when its all said and done?:wink:

the Republicans are betting the Democrats will take the house
 
nathan1977 said:
Never mind that the Islamofascist movement actually conforms to the defining characteristics of fascism, as opposed to the careless way it's casually tossed around in this forum...

Well, "Islamofascism," as a term, is curious because it is more palatable to the Religious Right here in America. The alternative would be "Muslim fundamentalists" or "theocrats," but since we have many Christian fundamentalists who want a theocracy here in America, they would not tolerate even the implication of having something in common with Muslim terrorists.

"Fascism," by implication, is atheist, so it satisfies the Religious Right by adding in another dig against "non-believers."

Melonj
 
deep said:


the Republicans are betting the Democrats will take the house

I mean betting odds like they have for the Super Bowl and other things. Where are people who do this type of thing putting their money, if there is such a thing for a mid-term election?
 
melon said:


Well, "Islamofascism," as a term, is curious because it is more palatable to the Religious Right here in America. The alternative would be "Muslim fundamentalists" or "theocrats," but since we have many Christian fundamentalists who want a theocracy here in America, they would not tolerate even the implication of having something in common with Muslim terrorists.

"Fascism," by implication, is atheist, so it satisfies the Religious Right by adding in another dig against "non-believers."

Melonj

I get your first point but...
I'm having difficulty finding any definitions of fascism in which atheism is implied...fascism is described as a "rigid one-party dictatorship" that is belligerent in its nationalism, racism and militarism, ETC. (No mention of disbelief in a god(s).)
Could religious fanaticism be included as one of the etc. in the definition? If so, isn't it redundant to call the "terrorists" Islamofascists? Isn't fascist enough? (I'm just thinking out loud--feel free to show any flaws in my logic.)
Hiltler, the little Christian used scripture to justify his views on jews, so his brand of fascism came from a christian-taint whereas the extreme fundamentalist islamic fascism is tainted by their ideology. Don't they both smack of fascism, with their own religious cherry on top?

Also, can we label "the terrorists" as a one-party anything? If so, do we say they are led by a bunch o' mini-dictators? or do we give that crown to Binny boy? Maybe we just need to call them what they are: irrational religious fanatics. IRFs. yeah, i like it, you?

Was Mussolini (the first fascist leader) an atheist? (If so, I guess I can see the implication...dhoop de doo.)--but i'm posting this anyway!
:p
 
Maoilbheannacht said:


Well, maybe what you construe as an attack is not one. Any serious discussion must involve a discussion of the options and why this or that option is bad for the country as opposed to the option they think will work best.

You've got to be kidding? You honestly think his comments were to spark serious discussion? Your credibility is leaking fast...
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


You've got to be kidding? You honestly think his comments were to spark serious discussion? Your credibility is leaking fast...

"Credibility leaking fast"?:eyebrow:

Anyway, I do think he is attempting to get people to focus on what should be done rather than attacking what has happened for the Billionth time.

What is the Democratic strategy for Iraq? Do they want to abandon the country as fast as possible, within 6 months like the Murtha Policy? Or are they like Leiberman who believes that staying the course is necessary for US and regional security and will eventually produce a stable and democratic Iraq? Or perhaps its something in the middle of those two extremes?

Right now, the Democratic base is deeply opposed to the war, but the elected officials seem completely divided on the best course of action. But what the United States should do in the coming years in Iraq should be the focus rather than attempting to rehash the 2004 election in which the Democrats were defeated , from the White House, to the Senate, to the House Of Representitives.
 
What is the Republican strategy exactly?

Stay there, plug our ears, close our eyes, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil and talk about how fabulous it is that more Iraqis now own cell phones?

Seriously, what is their strategy. I don't see one.
 
Maoilbheannacht said:


Right now, the Democratic base is deeply opposed to the war, but the elected officials seem completely divided on the best course of action. But what the United States should do in the coming years in Iraq should be the focus rather than attempting to rehash the 2004 election in which the Democrats were defeated , from the White House, to the Senate, to the House Of Representitives.

I don't think you quite have a grasp on the Democratic base. Yes I agree the party as awhole isn't as united as the Reps on this issue, but being opposed to this war and wanting to completely back out are two different things.

I opposed the war, but don't believe backing out now is going to do us any good. Bush dug the hole, now unfortunately we have to deal with it. Hopefully someone who knows what they are doing can come in and help us. Many feel the same way I do. Hell many Republicans feel the same way I do. They may have supported the war at first but they now realize it's a disaster but there's nothing to do except stay in. But stay in, doesn't mean stay the course and this is what the White House doesn't understand.

Regardless Rummy's comments will do nothing to aid us in coming up with a solution. They were nothing but attacks, I'm sorry you can't see that.
 
anitram said:
Seriously, what is their strategy. I don't see one.



the strategy is to say that the Democrats have no strategy other than "cut and run."

the dirty little secret is that there has never been a postwar strategy. remember how the Iraqis were going to throw roses and it was going to be like the Netherlands in 1944 and the oil would pay for it all?
 
The transcript (I got it from MSNBC):

The man who sees absolutes where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning is either a prophet or a quack. Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet. We end the COUNTDOWN where we began, our No. 1 story with a special comment on Mr. Rumsfeld‘s remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday. It demands the deep analysis and the sober contemplation of every American, for it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence, indeed the loyalty of the majority of Americans who impose the transient occupants of the highest offices in the land.

Worst still, it credits those same transient occupants, our employees, with a total omniscience, a total omniscience which neither commonsense nor this administration‘s track record, at home or abroad, suggest they deserve it. Dissent and disagreement with government is the life‘s blood of human freedom and not merely because it the first roadblock against the kind of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of his troops still fight this very evening in Iraq. It is also essential, because just every once in a while, it is right and the power to which it speaks is wrong.

In a small irony however, Mr. Rumsfeld speech writer was adroit in invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis for in their time, there was another government faced with true peril with a growing evil, powerful, and remorseless. That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld‘s, had a monopoly on all the facts. It too had the secret information, it alone had the true picture of the threat. It too, dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr. Rumsfeld‘s. Questioning their intellect and their morality.

That government was England‘s in the 1930. It knew Hitler posed in true threat to Europe, let alone to England. It knew Germany was not re-arming in violation of all treaties and accords. It knew that the hard evidence it had received, which contradicted its own policies, its own conclusions, its own omniscient, needed to be dismissed.

The English government of Neville Chamberlain (ph) already knew the truth. Most relevant of all, it knew that its staunchest critics need to be marginalized and isolated, in fact it portrayed the foremost of them as a blood-thirsty warmonger who was, if not truly senile, at best morally or intellectually confused. That critics name was Winston Churchill.

Sadly we have no Winston Churchill‘s evidence among this evening, we have only Donald Rumsfeld‘s demonizing disagreement, the way Neville Chamberlain demonized Winston Churchill. History and 163 million pounds of (INAUDIBLE) bombs over England have taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty and his own confusion, a confusion that suggested that the office cannot only make the man, but that the office can make the facts.

Thus did Mr. Rums make an apt historical analogy accepting the fact he has the battery plugged in backwards. His government absolute and exclusive in his knowledge is not the version of please one that stood up to the Nazis it is the modern version of the government of Neville Chamberlain.

But back to today‘s omniscient ones, that about what Mr. Rumsfeld is confused is simply this, this is a democracy, still, sometimes just barely and as such, all voices count, not just his. Had he or his president perhaps proven any of their prior claims of omniscience, about Osama bin Laden‘s plans five years ago, about Saddam Hussein‘s weapons four year, ago, about Hurricane Katrina‘s impact one year ago, we all might be able to swallow hard and except their omniscience as a bearable, even useful recipe of fact plus ego.

But to date, this government has proved little besides its own arrogance and its own hubris. Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or intellectually, about his standing in this matter. From Iraq to Katrina, to flu vaccine shortages to the entire fog of fear which continues to envelopes our nation, he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney and their cronies have inadvertently or intentionally profited and benefited, both personally and politically.

And yet he can stand up in public and question the morality and the intellect of those of us who dare ask just the receipt for the emperor new clothes.

In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child at whose heroism did he read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to fight? With what country has he confused the United States of America?

The confusion, we as its citizens must now address, is stark and forbidding. But variations of it have faced our forefathers when men like Nixon and McCarthy and Curtis Lemay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag.

Note, with hope in your heart, that those earlier Americans always found their way to the light and we can too. The confusion is about whether this secretary of defense and this administration are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists seek, the destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City so valiantly fought.

And about Mr. Rumsfeld‘s other main assertion of that this country faces a new type of fascism as he was correct to remind us that a government that knew everything could get everything wrong. So too was he right when he said that. Though probably not in the way he thought he meant. This country faces a new type of fascism, indeed.

Although I presumption use his sign off each night in feeble tribute, I have no utterly no claims to the words of the exemplary journalist, Edward R. Murrow. But never in the trial of 1,000 years of writing could I come close to matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of us, at a time when other polarities thought they and they alone knew everything and branded those who disagreed confused or immoral.

Thus for give me for reading Murrow in full.

“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty” he said in 1954, “We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not disended from fearful men, not from men who fear to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular. And so, goodnight and good luck.”

:drool:
 
And now, from the front page of The Washington Post:

Bush suggested last week that Democrats are promising voters to block additional money for continuing the war. Vice President Cheney this week said critics "claim retreat from Iraq would satisfy the appetite of the terrorists and get them to leave us alone." And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, citing passivity toward Nazi Germany before World War II, said that "many have still not learned history’s lessons" and "believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased."

Pressed to support these allegations, the White House yesterday could cite no major Democrat who has proposed cutting off funds or suggested that withdrawing from Iraq would persuade terrorists to leave Americans alone.

Liar, liar, pants on fire!
 
anitram said:
What is the Republican strategy exactly?

Stay there, plug our ears, close our eyes, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil and talk about how fabulous it is that more Iraqis now own cell phones?

Seriously, what is their strategy. I don't see one.

Well, its to set up a new democratic government to replace the Saddam regime. Provide economic assistance to the country to help it get on its feet. Provide training, organization, equipment and weapons to the Iraqi military. The goal is to rebuild the entire country and they would say much progress has already been made on all three major goals. An elected government is in place, but much of the economic aid has not been distributed throughout the country due to the violence. General Casey, said yesterday the Iraqi military will be able to take over 100% of all ground military operations in the country in 12 to 18 months. Progress has indeed been made on the military front, but obviously not enough.

If the country can keep the government together and continue to build up its military and police strength, then this should eventually lead to greater stability within the country and allow for a reduction in the coalition military. If the environment becomes more stable, then the economy can grow and more economic assistence from the coalition can actually be spent which will have a large impact on the final goal of a free and stable Iraq. I think its rather obvious what the plan of "stay the course" is.

Perhaps the reason the Democrats don't have a united strategy of their own is because they can't think of a better one, and from a political standpoint, embracing the strategy of the party in power does not benefit them. So, they continue to attack what is being done, without ever suggesting what they would do if they were put in charge of the White House and Congress again.

The Democrats who support immediate withdrawal never explain how this would impact the region as well as the United States.

As much as people hate "stay the course" it is at least a strategy with stated goals and means to achieve them. Besides a short term cut in US military spending and US lives lost, what would be achieved by an immediate withdrawal from Iraq? How would this insure or make it unlikely that the US and others would not have to return to the region in 5, 10, or 20 years?
 
Maoilbheannacht said:



As much as people hate "stay the course" it is at least a strategy with stated goals and means to achieve them.

Really:eyebrow:?

How much training will the Iraqi army need to take care of an enemy that we can't hardly contain?

This isn't a plan it's a disaster. Poorly planned, prematurely executed fuck up, is what this war is...It's not a plan.

I wish there was a plan. I wish someone would come up with a plan, but honestly this adminstration is shooting down anyone that comes up with something other than stay the shit course, that nothing will ever get done.
 
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