"I wouldn't define it as consent if I can't remember it happening."

[Headache in a Suitcase]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A midshipman who says she was raped by the Naval Academy's star quarterback testified Wednesday that with her help academy investigators secretly taped an apparent admission of the assault.

The woman, who has not been publicly identified, said that she called Lamar Owens on the phone and an investigator listened as he told her he felt distraught about what he had done and considered killing himself.

"I didn't do it for that long, you weren't even awake," said the midshipman, quoting Owens.

Owens, a 22-year-old senior from Savannah, Georgia, was charged last month under the military code of justice, with raping the female midshipman in her dormitory room on January 29.

The alleged victim testified at the beginning of Owens' Article 32 hearing at the Washington Navy Yard.

Described by the academy as roughly equivalent to a civilian grand jury proceeding, the hearing will determine if there is sufficient evidence to go ahead with a court-martial, Navy officials said.

Owens' lawyer, Steven F. Wroble, has predicted that his client will be cleared by a military court.

The alleged victim testified the assault occurred after she had been out drinking at an Annapolis bar with friends. She said she was examined for rape on January 31 and reported the attack to criminal investigators on February 6.

The taped conversation occurred shortly after her report.

Under cross-examination, the woman acknowledged she was very drunk on the night of the assault and that her memory of events was spotty. When defense attorney Wroble asked her if it was possible that she had consented to sex, she answered, "I suppose."

Later, however, she said, "I wouldn't define it as consent if I can't remember it happening."

Still later, she said, "I don't believe I would have consented."

Both Owens and the woman are attending classes at the academy, but officials say they have taken steps to ensure their paths do not cross.

Owens guided Navy's football team to an 8-4 season record that included victories over Air Force and Army and a victory in the Poinsettia Bowl over Colorado State.

now i don't know what the QB here has admitted to on tape, so this may be a moot issue... but i have a bit of an issue with the whole "i wouldn't define it as consent if i can't remember it happening."

now don't get me wrong... no is no is no and if you're in the middle of the act and someone says no and the other person continues anyway, it can still be considered rape. but if a person consents because they're voluntarily drunk, then once they sober up change their mind, can you really consider it to be rape?

i mean... i guess if the alleged rapist was stone cold sober and took advantage of the situation, but who's to say he, too, wasn't drunk, and/or that she wasn't acting fall down sloppy drunk at the time?

this whole thing confuses me.

 

[BVS]

Well alcohol and consent have always been a blurry issue.

 

[Irvine511]

now don't get me wrong... no is no is no and if you're in the middle of the act and someone says no and the other person continues anyway, it can still be considered rape. but if a person consents because they're voluntarily drunk, then once they sober up change their mind, can you really consider it to be rape?

not that i think this is good or bad, but in the state where i went to college, a woman is unable to give legal consent to sex if she has had even one drink.

the same does not apply for men, i.e., if a man is hammered, and the woman is sober, and they have sex, legal rape has not happened.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

that's a bit biased there... not to mention that it's a little shortsided as to all the potential rape possabilities... what about a rape of a man by a man or a woman by a woman? how would those rules apply?

 

[Irvine511]

that's a bit biased there... not to mention that it's a little shortsided as to all the potential rape possabilities... what about a rape of a man by a man or a woman by a woman? how would those rules apply?

what i remember from my training classes (was kind of an RA, only different, and more involved, and had to do some counseling of sorts in college) was that only a man is in possession of "the weapon" used in rape, and i don't remember man-on-man rape ever being discussed in this context -- i was quite closeted at the time and it never occured to me to bring it up. if we are to take the logic of the law and remove gender, it seems to me that if a man is having sex with a man, if the bottom is drunk, then the bottom cannot give consent.



but, to me, these laws get into all sorts of double standards and sexist preconceptions about men and women and sex -- i.e., men will never turn it down, that women must be shielded and protected and are incapable of making their own decisions, and the only real man-on-man rape that ever happens is man-on-boy. and i have no idea what woman-on-woman rape would be understood as since neither woman has "the weapon" as understood by the law, unless it were penetration by other objects.

it seems as if the law is obsessed with penetrator vs. penetrated, which seems to lack nuance, at the very least.

i have no idea how all this plays out in reality.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

it's deffinetly a cloudy topic, and probably shouldn't be so left open for interpretation.

i guess, like most things, it'll take a high profile case to get things changed.

 

[Liesje]

that's a bit biased there... not to mention that it's a little shortsided as to all the potential rape possabilities... what about a rape of a man by a man or a woman by a woman? how would those rules apply?

There was a Law and Order episode that addressed this issue. I think the problem was that rape is defined as forcible penetration. Therefore, men can rape women and each other, but women can't rape men or each other.

As a woman, the whole alcohol thing is very frustrating. Common sense says men should be smart enough to avoid women who've had way too much to drink. However, if she consents, she consents. You want to say "don't put yourself in that situation" but then you're blaming the victim. If the confession is not proven to be true and she did say she may have consented, I'd have a hard time voting guilty.

 

[AliEnvy]

I understand that most rape experts agree that rape is an assertion of power and control as opposed to being a purely sexual impulse.

If you look at it from that direction, it's easier to look at a situation and determine where there might be intentionally imposed sexual domination that renders the receiver helpless regardless of genders, perceived weapons and penetration.

 

[JMScoopy]

funny, my college makes it seem like if you have sex with a woman, its sexual assault or rape. consent or not. alcohol or not.

 

[AvsGirl41]

As a woman, the whole alcohol thing is very frustrating. Common sense says men should be smart enough to avoid women who've had way too much to drink. However, if she consents, she consents. You want to say "don't put yourself in that situation" but then you're blaming the victim. If the confession is not proven to be true and she did say she may have consented, I'd have a hard time voting guilty.

I would have to agree. To me, if there is no physical trauma (which would happen, even if you were drunk and unconscious--there would be bruising or injury) I could not claim rape. I would have to chalk it up as a very bad mistake. I consented to something under the influence of alcohol.

Otherwise, every drunken one night stand could be constituted as a rape and I don't think that is fair or accurate.

What I think is the most frustrating about this is that it just makes things more difficult for true rape victims. Every frat girl is claiming rape instead of responsibility.

 

[BVS]

I think the problem was that rape is defined as forcible penetration. Therefore, men can rape women and each other, but women can't rape men or each other.

With this definition, women still could rape women. Or maybe it would be defined as sexual assault, I don't know. For I know some definitions define sex as only penetration with a penis.

And yes as rare as it is, women can still rape men.

 

[indra]

"I didn't do it for that long, you weren't even awake," said the midshipman, quoting Owens.

How can anyone give consent if he/she isn't conscious?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

two drunk people going at it, one passes out before the other realizes.

not as unrealistic as it sounds.

 

[indra]

two drunk people going at it, one passes out before the other realizes.

not as unrealistic as it sounds.

Yes but if he actually said what I quoted, he did know she wasn't conscious. Perhaps if he said "you passed out during..." but if he said "you weren't even awake" then he knew she couldn't say yes or no.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

 

[BVS]

Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

Just for the record, I(and I believe so were some others) was commenting on the "I wouldn't define it as consent if i can't remember it happening" question that Headache posed, and not so much on the case at hand.

For this case, and I don't know exactly what he admitted, but if he indeed realizes she wasn't conscious, he should have stopped. Period.

But the question in general of consent and where the lines are brings up an issue that I think should be discussed. If not, like what was said before, anyone man or woman with remorse could cry rape.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

now i don't know what the QB here has admitted to on tape, so this may be a moot issue...

the story quoted one line... yes, obviously that one line doesn't sound good... but it doesn't show you the rest of the tape to show the context in which he said it.

i'm not neccesarily defending the navy QB here. if he knew from start to finish that she was onconscious, then yes... it's an obvious case of rape.

but if they were both conscious when the act began and he didn't realize that she had passed out at first, the small quote attributed to him here could certainly fit that situation if you think about it. you'd have to hear the rest of the tape to tell what context it was said in.

there's a big difference between somethine like this...

i'm so sorry, we started having sex and i think you passed out. i didn't do it for that long... you weren't even awake, oh god... i'm so sorry i didn't even know you had passed out

and...

yea i did it... i didn't do it for that long... you weren't even awake, but i did it anyway

or some shit like that....

but like bonovoxsupastar said... my question isn't neccesariliy this case alone, it's more an overall discussion of the topic, not just this specific case.

 

[Irvine511]

Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

you're missing what we're discussing -- the cloudy area involving alcohol and consent, as well as how consent under the law is defined, and we haven't really gotten into the specifics of the case itself, at least up until your post.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Indeed. My comment was towards the issue as a whole. From the few quotes from the QB, and his expressed feelings of guilt, I would define this particular case as rape.

There seem to be details missing--she went and had a rape exam, so there must have been physical evidence such as bruising.

BUT, there have been alot of these "I was drunk and woke up with a guy, thus it wasn't consensual" sort of stories coming from college campuses. Is it in fact rape or just a very bad mistake? In my opinion, there must be physical evidence. I would think that even under the effect of alcohol or "roofies", if a man has taken advantage of a woman, there *will* be signs of trauma.

My point is that when a woman is unquestionably raped it is these iffy cases that make it that much harder for her to receive justice. It frustrates and angers me as a woman. There's a whole myraid of issues at work here, from irresponsible college policies to young women not caring for or respecting themselves. The whole thing angers me.

The fact is, you didn't have these kinds of cases before binge drinking, girls gone wild, recruitment parties, MTV spring break, etc. We have a youth culture who doesn't respect themselves, their bodies, or each other. It's all about drinking yourself insensible and hooking up with strangers--or in the case of CU, the coach buys the booze, drugs and girls for you. Sleaze has always been around, and campuses have always been hot spots for booze and sex, but it is beyond that anymore.

And I say this as a young woman, who is finishing up college and have friends who drink, do drugs, and have woken up with people they didn't remember going home with. I'm not some lecturing parent, I see it first hand. It's upsetting in more ways than I can say.

 

[Liesje]

Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

If she wasn't conscious, then there's no question. It was rape.

However, now she's been saying she can't remember, she may have just been trashed. That's what we were commenting on. As sleazy as it is, I couldn't send a guy to the hole for 10 years because he had sex with a woman who was so trashed she was game for anything and then couldn't remember what happened. But if I say that too loud, I'm blaming the victim.

It's almost a double standard here and illustrates a real setback when it comes to getting justice for women who HAVE been raped. If you prosecute the guy for rape, you risk acquittal and having the whole thing thrown out, rape allegations are made a mockery. If you don't, then you're blaming the victim and don't care about women's rights.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I wouldn't disagree that there is an element of culture, especially in colleges, of people behaving in that way avsgirl, but it's "boys gone wild " too. There is also too much disrespect for women amongst some men in college, to the point where you have "respected" coaches making horribly ignorant comments about rape and some entire aspects of college life that are ignorant about rape and actually promote incorrect attitudes about rape. Not the way to "mold" young men in my opinion.

I don't believe there have to be physical signs of trauma to be a rape - there are plenty of rapes in which there aren't, unfortunately I've known about a couple. Legally there don't have to be physical manifestations of trauma either.

There is an element of blaming the victim in an instance like that (I'm just referring to drinking, not this particular one- I don't know what really happened and none of us do) "She shouldn't have put herself in that situation"-just like that murder and rape victim in NYC Imette St Guillen.

Both parties ideally shouldn't put themselves in a drinking and sex situation, and if a man wants to avoid any possible problems maybe he should avoid that situation altogether. So should a woman too, but there is a line between that and blaming a rape victim.

Of course false allegations of rape exist but I think most statistics show they are a small minority of cases. And so many rapes still go unreported, especially acquaintance rapes.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

i have to disagree with the thought that this is a new phenomenon brought on by MTV or what have you.

as for the colorado football scandal, there was one report that an assistant coach had paid for call girls to visit 3 recurits... but the main part of the scandal involved players using alcohol, drugs and sex to intice recruits to come to the college, and did so with teh knowledge of the coaching staff. this was combined with a number of rape allegations, also by players. coach barnett was not fired because he was personaly paying for sex, drugs and alcohol for recruits... he was fired because his players were out of control and he did nothing to stop it, and it all spiraled out of control after barnett made some rather stupid comments.

and the idea that alcohol, drugs and sex in college recruiting is a new phenomenon is laughable. i cretainly had plent of access to alcohol on my recruiting trips 8 years ago, and it certainly wasn't new then, either. when you go on a recruiting visit you stay with a player on the team, who is supposed to show you what it's like to be a college student at that particular institution. what do you think college students do?

and do not be fooled into thinking this is only a practice in men's sports. i have witnessed with my own eyes, on numerous occasions throughout my years in school, recruits for women's athletic teams drunk out of their mind, smoking pot, and more... and it was the members of the women's team who got the recruits like that in the first place.

i'm not saying it's ok, i'm just saying it's been going on for a looooong time, and is not limited to the university of colorado, men's teams, division 1, 2 or 3.

now... is there a problem with rape and male athletes? i wouldn't exactly call it a problem... i was an athlete in college and i never once heard of any such problems. doesn't mean it didn't happen, but i never heard of it, witnessed it or even heard rumors about it. that said, rape is a crime of power, not sex. it's a crime , often, of ego. many top line athletes, just like celebrities, have over-blown ego's and feel they are entitled to certain things. you combine this attitude with someone with a violent personality and you have a recipie for potential tragedy.

 

[Irvine511]

i have to disagree with the thought that this is a new phenomenon brought on by MTV or what have you.

i think this is true. it's only been in the last 10-15 years that "date rape" has come into national consciousness, and i think it's very clear that the majority of straight men are far more aware of what is and what isn't acceptable, from stuff as simple as "no means no."



[q]and the idea that alcohol, drugs and sex in college recruiting is a new phenomenon is laughable. i cretainly had plent of access to alcohol on my recruiting trips 8 years ago, and it certainly wasn't new then, either. when you go on a recruiting visit you stay with a player on the team, who is supposed to show you what it's like to be a college student at that particular institution. what do you think college students do?[/q]


i was a recruited swimmer at a Division III school -- and alcohol was certainly thrown in my face as a lure to get me to come to each and every school i applied to.

and i had a great time, and i loved where i went to college.

 

[yolland]

As sleazy as it is, I couldn't send a guy to the hole for 10 years because he had sex with a woman who was so trashed she was game for anything and then couldn't remember what happened. But if I say that too loud, I'm blaming the victim.

I'm not sure it's ultimately in women's best interests to perceive such situations (i.e. conscious, but trashed) as "victimization." Unfortunately, a great many women--but not men--are raised to feel a deep sense of shame and humiliation at the thought of "having been had" by someone they wouldn't have chosen to have sex with while sober. Generally it's much easier for men to laugh off, or at least grimace and move on from, such situations. While raising women to see it this way does admittedly have at least one wholly practical and useful effect--i.e., it helps to reduce the likelihood of unwanted preganancy, a consequence men don't have to worry about--I don't think that is ultimately sufficient to justify the psychological damage that seeing themselves as inherently more exploitable can do to women. Not that I'm advocating drunken sexual encounters between people who aren't already involved in a mutual sexual relationship--I don't. But I really, really dislike the thought that we are collectively sending our daughters (but not our sons) out into the world with the mixed message of, on the one hand, "Go out there and have some fun" yet on the other, "You are tainted and shameful if you get 'taken advantage of' in the process."

And (on another topic entirely here) MrsS is correct to point out that rape, even when forceful and the woman obviously unwilling, does not necessarily result in visible physical trauma. For that matter, fully consensual sex can sometimes cause visible mild injury, making the presence or absence of minor bruising or swelling an inadequate measure in and of itself.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Oh, certainly, I didn't mean to imply it was just girls gone wild, Mrs. Springsteen--it's both sexes, equally. Neither one has respect for the other and it's disgusting.

All I can say in response to Headache and Irvine is that I never said drinking, drugs and sex in college was new, nor is date rape. I didn't think I had to give a timeline, but I think we could all agree that this has reached epic proportions in the last 10, 20 years. We're not that far apart in age here.

I don't look at the past with rose tinted glasses--but hey, I went to Panama City on spring break. I can guarantee that stuff wasn't going on in 1965. It probably wasn't going on in 1985. The cops told us it had gotten increasingly worse. Speaking as a young woman, I can say my mom didn't have to worry as much when going to a bar or party as I have to. It's a free for all.

 

[Irvine511]

All I can say in response to Headache and Irvine is that I never said drinking, drugs and sex in college was new, nor is date rape. I didn't think I had to give a timeline, but I think we could all agree that this has reached epic proportions in the last 10, 20 years. We're not that far apart in age here.

I don't look at the past with rose tinted glasses--but hey, I went to Panama City on spring break. I can guarantee that stuff wasn't going on in 1965. It probably wasn't going on in 1985. The cops told us it had gotten increasingly worse. Speaking as a young woman, I can say my mom didn't have to worry as much when going to a bar or party as I have to. It's a free for all.

this has always confused me. i remember hearing stories in college about years past, and perhaps this is just nostalgia talking, but it seems like things were far wilder, at least on a college campus, then they are today. far wilder, and with far more division between the genders and the viewing of women as potential sex objects only. and i can say that, from what i hear, things where i went to college are tamer today than they were when i was there. or at least that's my perception.



i do think, however, that the culture of Spring Break has increased in recent years, and there's an expectation to live up to the stuff you see on TV, to try and participate in a reality that never really existed in the first place.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Oh, certainly, I didn't mean to imply it was just girls gone wild, Mrs. Springsteen--it's both sexes, equally. Neither one has respect for the other and it's disgusting.

I know you didn't and I agree, it is disgusting- maybe people don't have respect for themselves either. But that can come from issues that I understand, that can be complicated.

The bottom line for me is that I feel we still have a double standard - the woman in this situation or any like it, or any rape that is far more clear cut than this one is, will always face more questions, be subjected to more insinuations, be less believed, etc. I can't imagine that a man in Imette St Guillen's situation would face any questions as to what he was doing out at 3 or 4 AM at a bar.

I understand that the accuser must be questioned as to how valid her accusations are and that rape must be proven because it is such a serious allegation, but it goes way beyond that in so many situations. And its for that very reason that so many women still don't report rapes. It is a horrific thing to be put through when you have already been raped.

 

[fly so high!]

There is nothing to be confused here!

She did not consent , it's rape plain and simple!

 

[BAW]

this has always confused me. i remember hearing stories in college about years past, and perhaps this is just nostalgia talking, but it seems like things were far wilder, at least on a college campus, then they are today. far wilder, and with far more division between the genders and the viewing of women as potential sex objects only. and i can say that, from what i hear, things where i went to college are tamer today than they were when i was there. or at least that's my perception.

I didn't go to college but my high school years were 1980-1984 and things were pretty friggen wild back then. There was a whole lot of sex going on, tons of drugs and drinking etc. Those 80's teen movies where the parents go out of town and 100 kids trash the house and have sex in the parents' bed were pretty much based in reality. I can only imagine it was even wilder when people left home for college.


And you are correct about the gender divide back then. If a girl got trashed and was taken advantage of or just couldn't remember saying yes, she tended to wake up and say "oh my God, I can't believe I did that" rather than "he raped me." I don't think we would have even considered telling someone, other than our friends. The prevailing attitude was "well he's a guy, what do you expect?" High school and college age guys got away with a LOT back then.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

this is all obviously if the person voluntarily drank themselves drunk... if they are coerced into drinking or have something put into their drink or whatever, that's a completely different situation.

but if a woman gets drunk and consents, even if she never would have if she was sober, i have a hard time convicting someone of rape.