i like PETA but sometimes their tactics can be extreme

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
You have every right to make unfounded accusations. If you won't, or can't, prove them, then that's your issue. And I won't call you a liar if you don't call me stupid.

And, again (as I think you and I have already had a similar discussion), people's fears based on "common knowledge" aren't evidence of anything but people's capacity to be afraid and their willingness to assign blame for random events.
 
ThatGuy said:
Anecdotal evedence is nice, but completely unprovable. And are you suggesting that all animal tests are run this way? And if yes, then wouldn't the solution be to place some restrictions on testing rather than just banning it outright?

You're making a lot of unfounded claims about what animal research is really all about. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you presented some evidence.

Can you present some evidence to support your claims?
 
I have no google link for this, and even if I did I have the feeling you'd disregard it. I had a friend, a man I knew personally, who came home from work one day and discovered his two Golden Retrievers were missing. They were found several days later in a town 2 states and almost 400 miles away. How did they get there? They didn't walk. There was no evidence but the local cops told the guy when he came to pick them up the most likely scenario was that it was people who kidnap friendly pet dogs to sell to research labs and for some reason felt the heat and ditched them like so much contraband. They said it had happened before. That is my personal experience, on top of everything else I've heard and seen and told about.

Again I make no claims that EVERY lab operates this way, only that such things have happened and it is not uncommon.
 
Lilac, you clearly have no idea just how the regulations regarding animal research have tightened in the last decade or so. Right now in Canada, we have separate federal, regional and local laws concerning research and they have to be followed to the letter or you will lose your license. People have to undergo training and security in the animal facilities is so high that you have to have specially issued cards to get in. Not only that, but no two people can simultaneously get in and get out of the facility at the same time, for security reasons. Add to that the many, many hours of training you have to receive and not to mention the fact you have to be certified before you're even allowed access.

Great care is taken to treat the animals humanely. The story you are referring to is completely inconsistent and maybe one in a million for all you know.

In fact, if you ever worked in an animal research lab you will know that the number one priority is to protect the animals from us, not the other way around. They live in entirely sterile environments and it sometimes takes us 2 hours to properly shower and gown up to even access the rooms with the cages.

Animal research was completely different decades ago than it is now. Do I feel great when I have to sacrifice a mouse for an experiment? No, not particularly. But I'm a scientist and I can see the bigger picture, and the results.

As for the argument about funding - please. Have you ever actually applied for grants? If you want to make the argument that animal research brings you more money for a grant, it is relatively moot, because what's really hot is the use of primary cells derived from human sources (blood, organs, tissues).
 
No, I can't prove that what you described antecdotally didn't happen. Then again, I could tell you that I have purple skin and come from a planet several light years away. Prove to me that it's not true. You can make any claim that you want, but if it's unverifiable it really has little use as an argument.

Your story about your friend is very sad. I am definitely against people's pets being kidnapped. But is it a reason to ban animal testing? Wouldn't it be better to place better controls on it rather than ban it outright?

My real point was this:
Animal testing gets far out of hand when much of it is done unnecessarily or excessively, especially in cases where holding onto funding is the main objective and not the cure for any disease.

You said this without backing it up at all. I honestly want to know if this is true, or just a generalization.
 
If you say there are new rules, maybe that explains why I don't hear so much about this as I used to. But aren't you in Canada, the US might not have these laws.

I found a link that mentions stolen pets being sold to research labs:

http://www.stolenpets.com/

read the whole site but this part is the 'evidence' I was looking for:

http://www.stolenpets.com/theft_01.htm

PETA has a lot on unnecessary experiments involving pets, but no need to post those links since anyone who needs evidence hates PETA so much they'd disregard it anyway.

Anitram, while your employer may be researching cures for diseases, there are still a lot of experiments going on that really aren't important and a lot of animals are suffering. The funding? Come on haven't you heard the pork barrel tales of people getting gov't funding to research the smell of squirrel doo and stuff like that? I'm sure there are a lot of grants out there and a lot of money people can get if they keep up some frivilous experiment. This may keep them employed but it's not worth the suffering of live creatures.
 
Last edited:
ThatGuy said:
Which claims are you referring to?

That animals are not stolen from families and placed in research labs and that they do not suffer horrible abuse by researchers. Also, that research is only used for testing medicine.
I would also like to know why you seem to think we are better than animals. Is this because we can talk and they can't. Do you believe that because of this they deserve to suffer? You also stated we are at the top of the food chain. Excuse me, but I think a tiger and bear could kill and eat me before I could kill and eat him or her. So you may need to rethink that issue.
 
Sheltie said:


That animals are not stolen from families and placed in research labs and that they do not suffer horrible abuse by researchers. Also, that research is only used for testing medicine.

I didn't say that I didn't believe that it had never happened. I just don't think that it's that widespread. I also did not say that animals weren't harmed by researchers. I have no doubt that some of the testing being performed on animals is terrible, and I am troubled by it. However I know that we are all leading better, healthier lives due to animal research. We have a very wide assortment of vaccines/medicines that would not have been possible without animal testing. I believe that it's an unfortunate, but necessary, evil.

And next time I ask you to point out where I made unfounded claims it would be helpful if you found some that I actually said.

I would also like to know why you seem to think we are better than animals. Is this because we can talk and they can't. Do you believe that because of this they deserve to suffer? You also stated we are at the top of the food chain. Excuse me, but I think a tiger and bear could kill and eat me before I could kill and eat him or her. So you may need to rethink that issue.

If tigers and bears were at the top of the foodchain they'd be living in my house and arguing about "human testing." A spider bite can kill me, but it doesn't put a spider above humans on the food chain. Humanity's ability to create tools has resulted in its ability to (wrongly) obliterate entire tiger and bear habitats. It's not some egotistical belief that causes me to think that people are "better" than animals. It's no different than a bear being "better" than a trout, or the lioness being "better" than a zebra. And like those animals, I have the "right" to eat animals that I'm "better" than.

And please don't create this straw man in my place of someone who thinks animals "deserve to suffer." My point is, if we create a new medicine that can cure a terrible disease, do you want it tested out on people, or animals? ANIMAL TESTING IS TERRIBLE! But would you rather test on people?
 
Lilac said:

:scream:

Is this a reason to end animal testing, or a reason to change the way in whcih they receive their specimens?
 
As long as animal research is common and accepted this will continue to happen. Even the animals who were not stolen or were not pets still suffer. I will have to look again for links that prove that most research is not for life saving medicine but for some very frivilous and unnecessary reasons (like the squirrel poo) I am about searched out for now, I will try it later.

And yes I do agree with people who say that there has to be a better way than inflicting torture on animals.

It may not be long before the homeless and abandoned elderly are used too. In Scotland hundreds of years ago people were arreseted for digging up bodies from cemetaries for sale to the local medical school.
 
Lilac said:
and here is a story that actually admits it happens but denies we need laws to stop it!

http://www.the-aps.org/pa/action/news/petsafety.htm

Did you read the entire thing?

Akaka claims that Class B dealers acquire "tens of thousands of dogs and cats," and that "many" of these animals are "family pets" obtained from middle-men who "resort to theft and deception as they collect animals and sell them to Class B dealers." It is unlikely however that any such complaints have emanated from Sen. Akaka's constituents since according to the USDA's most recent Animal Welfare Act annual report only one cat and no dogs were used in research, teaching, or testing in the state of Hawaii in 2002.

Unfortunately, S. 2346 is predicated on many factual errors. Reading Akaka's statement, one might believe that there is a massive problem in this country of stolen pets ending up in research facilities. It is true that claims along these lines have been a rallying cry among animal activists since the 1960s. However, Congress, the USDA, and the research community have worked together since then to make significant changes that should reassure the American public about the safety of family pets.

Furthermore, even as provisions to assure pet safety have been implemented, the numbers of dogs and cats used in research has steadily declined. In 1973 when the USDA first collecting statistics, approximately 195,000 dogs and 66,000 cats were used in research, teaching, and testing. In 1993, that number had declined to 106,000 dogs and nearly 34,000 cats. By 2002, the numbers had declined further to some 68,000 dogs and 24,000 cats. These totals represent all dogs and cats including those supplied by animal breeders, pounds and shelters, and random source animal dealers. The number of animals needed for research should also be compared with what is conservatively estimated as several million unwanted dogs and cats that are put to death in pounds each year.

Many research institutions are located where there are state laws, local ordinances, or internal policies to prohibit pounds and shelters from providing animals for research. Class B dealers provide a necessary service by supplying them with animals that breeders cannot produce. S. 2346 would not only prohibit Class B dealers from supplying these animals, it would also require pounds and shelters to register with the USDA in order to do so. Going through a registration process in order to perform a public service may be one hurdle too many for hard-pressed pounds and shelters, and some may decide that it is not worth their effort.

The Laboratory Animal Welfare Act was originally passed in 1966 to protect family pets from unscrupulous animal dealers. Congress has since approved a number of new pet protection provisions as part of what is now known as the Animal Welfare Act. Over the past decade, the USDA has significantly stepped up its enforcement efforts, putting a number of non-compliant animal dealers out of business. This includes frequent inspections of problem dealers and audits of their records to trace dogs and cats back to the individuals listed on identification records as the original owner. The success rate of such trace back audits is now around 96%. These enforcement efforts should be continued, but no new legislation is needed to assure the safety of family pets.
 
Lilac said:
As long as animal research is common and accepted this will continue to happen. Even the animals who were not stolen or were not pets still suffer. I will have to look again for links that prove that most research is not for life saving medicine but for some very frivilous and unnecessary reasons (like the squirrel poo) I am about searched out for now, I will try it later.

Would studying the squirrel poo harm the squirrel in any way?

And yes I do agree with people who say that there has to be a better way than inflicting torture on animals.

I would be glad to hear what you've come up with.

It may not be long before the homeless and abandoned elderly are used too. In Scotland hundreds of years ago people were arreseted for digging up bodies from cemetaries for sale to the local medical school.

What? We've come a long way since then, don't you think? Why would we suddenly take giant steps backwards? Not to mention the stink EVERYONE including the government would make about this sort of thing. The government won't even allow research on tiny clumps of stem cells. It's never, ever going to happen. I made a stink about unfounded arguments earlier, but this one is beyond the pale.
 
I'm not surprised there wasn't much evidence found of animals being bought from dealers who stole them. I mean, like I said no questions asked. I'm sure no dealers ever say "here's some dogs I stole out of people's backyards where's my money!" then they record in their books "24 dogs purchased from dealer who stole them from their owners!" :rolleyes: of course there wouldn't be a paper trail of such things. I'm not saying the labs are aware of where the pets came from, but I am saying they likely don't care and don't ask. You ignore the other 6 links I posted where it is obvious and well known that class b dealers do this and it is common practice.
 
I'm also not surprised that it is being denied or made to look insignificant. Two reasons: no one who could do anything really cares, and MONEY always wins out over compassion.
 
Lilac said:
I will have to look again for links that prove that most research is not for life saving medicine but for some very frivilous and unnecessary reasons (like the squirrel poo)

You may be searching for a long time. Forever, in fact.

I will guarantee you right now that you will not get any kind of reputable source saying that MOST animal research is unecessary.

Frankly, what offends me is when people who are not scientists and who have never conducted any sort of work in molecular biology nor stepped foot in a research laboratory telling me what it is that most of us are doing. It's incredibly offensive.

I will tell you what the people on my floor are doing with animal research.

The lab around the corner is studying neuroblastoma - you might want to look it up, it's a cancer that strikes children with one of the highest mortality rates. When it recurrs, it is essentially something like 98% mortality rate.

The lab next to us studies juvenile diabetes and they actually discovered a correlation between feeding your baby cow's milk early on in life (before 4-6 months of age) and the early onset of juvenile diabetes. They do their work on mice.

My lab is investigating three things using mice, and one using rabbits. The mice experiments are used to 1. develop anti-leukemia drugs for childhood leukemias, 2. to develop blockers against solid tumors and 3. to develop a new breast cancer medicine targeted at women with highly invasive cancer for whom tamoxifen is ineffective. The rabbits are also used for this purpose.

Finally, the fourth lab is studying children who have a genetic mutation which predisposes them to having unnaturally high cholesterol early on in life, resulting in heart attacks and strokes. They use hamsters in their research.

So, please don't tell me most of our work is unnecessary. It's absurd. Go to one of these places and educate yourself a little about what people are doing and why.
 
Anitram, since you are so experienced in this area, could you tell me if you think there is another way to conduct this research? Is there any tecnology which could be used thereby, decreasing the amount of research conducted on animals?
Also, I am interested to know where the animals come from that are used in this research. That is if don't mind disclosing that information.
Could you also describe what happens to these animals when the research is complete?
Also, is there a time limit on the amount of research conducted on each animal, or does it continue until the animal is so mutilated that is no longer considered useable?
 
Last edited:
ThatGuy said:


:scream:

Is this a reason to end animal testing, or a reason to change the way in whcih they receive their specimens?

exactly. Saying that animal testing is responsible for stolen pets and should discontinue is like saying gas stations are responsible for stolen children and they should all be shut down and by the way anyone who uses a gas station indirectly supports babies being stolen. :rolleyes:

The only time I've ever heard of pets being stolen for research before this was in that Beethoven dog movie. And like anitram said, you should try and see how animals in labs are kept. When I went to see my cat a few times before taking him home, I had to have people with the right access let me in, soap my hands and arms, wear a labcoat and booties, etc, etc just to pet my cat!

I don't support theft of any kind, but if someone likes to leave their precious dear pets roaming the neighborhood and not kept inside and sheltered where they belong, they probably were taken to a better, healthier, safer life in a lab. I dunno, but if I ever saw a "free to good home" ad, I'd never just give my cat away! He's my dearest pet and will be by my side until the day he dies. The problem here besides pets being stolen is people getting pets who can't care for them or people shipping off unwanted pets to shelters. Now if anything's unfair, I'd be worried about this.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom