"I Hate Gay People"

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speedracer said:
Finally, the cultural custom of men showering with men and women showering with women in the locker room is based on the empirical observation that men tend to be sexually attracted to women and women tend to be sexually attracted to men. Most of the rest of society has caught on to the fact that this empirical observation is not universally true, but the sporting world has not. When I go to the gym, I shower at home, and I completely do not understand why locker rooms can't just have individual shower stalls.



what i find interesting is why many women's locker rooms do have individual stalls, but many men's locker rooms don't. i think that's changing, and newer gyms do have men's rooms with individual stalls, but that wasn't how it always was.

i agree that the cultural standard is based in the assumption of heterosexuality, and most people are straight, so it's not an unreasonable standard at all. but what people don't seem to understand is that gay men have adapted to this and are there to shower and get dressed just like anyone else. it only becomes a problem when a striaght man becomes aware of a gay man and this makes him feel uncomfortable, but the problem is entirely the straight man's. i can understand how he might feel a little bit strange at the idea that someone is deriving some aesthetic/sexual pleasure from seeing his naked body, but it is not a gay man's issue it is the straight man's issue for feeling terrified at the thought that someone might be enjoying standing next to him in the shower in the way he would enjoy standing next to a woman in the shower. but if you're not touched or harassed or leered at, you're not violated. relax.

as for showering with a woman, i really have no idea. i've never actually done that, and the discomfort i would feel would be due to the presence of unfamiliar anatomy in the context of showering in the gym and not due to some worry that she's checking me out. heck, i'm flattered when women find me attractive, and i enjoy mildly flirting with women as well, it's all in fun. but there are lines that we're both aware of, and we're all mature enough not to cross them.

finally, i have to post this as it was linked to in Dan Savage's column today:

[q]Straight men: Stop to consider things. And stand up for your gay friends. We have more to offer than your straight friends. We help get you laid (ladies will love the fact you have gay friends, you sexy, sensitive man, you). We will also give you hair-care product advice, baby-sit your kids, and tell your wives that blowjobs are mandatory for any happy relationship and should be administered at least three times per week. Oh, we'll also assure her that the amount of porn you watch is completely normal.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=21930

[/q]
 
Irvine511 said:

i can understand how he might feel a little bit strange at the idea that someone is deriving some aesthetic/sexual pleasure from seeing his naked body, but it is not a gay man's issue it is the straight man's issue for feeling terrified at the thought that someone might be enjoying standing next to him in the shower in the way he would enjoy standing next to a woman in the shower. but if you're not touched or harassed or leered at, you're not violated. relax.

[/q]

I'm not here to argue, but I would like to ask you to consider something. If a straight man were to walk into a woman's locker room, take off his clothes and shower next to a woman taking a shower, do you think she would be uncomfortable and nervous about it? Do you think that would be a reasonable reaction for her?

In the same way, I think it's nartural that straight men would feel uncomfortable and nervous at the thought of being undressed in front of a gay man.

As for myself, I'm very shy about levels of undress. I don't like to share a locker room with anyone, male or female. Heck, I don't even like to take off my shirt.
 
80sU2isBest said:


I'm not here to argue, but I would like to ask you to consider something. If a straight man were to walk into a woman's locker room, take off his clothes and shower next to a woman taking a shower, do you think she would be uncomfortable and nervous about it? Do you think that would be a reasonable reaction for her?

In the same way, I think it's nartural that straight men would feel uncomfortable and nervous at the thought of being undressed in front of a gay man.


What's the agenda of the man stripping down and showering with the women?

I don't understand the uncomfortableness at all. It's all the same equipment.
 
80sU2isBest said:


I'm not here to argue, but I would like to ask you to consider something. If a straight man were to walk into a woman's locker room, take off his clothes and shower next to a woman taking a shower, do you think she would be uncomfortable and nervous about it? Do you think that would be a reasonable reaction for her?

In the same way, I think it's nartural that straight men would feel uncomfortable and nervous at the thought of being undressed in front of a gay man.



again, gay men and straight men have been showering together since forever. it's not analogous to a straight man walking into the women's locker room because communal same-sex nudity doesn't have a sexual component to it. it's not sexual for a gay man and it's not sexual for a straight man. like i said, i can understand the slight uncomfortableness a straight man might feel if he knew a gay man were showering next to him, but that's his issue and one he needs to deal with. the gay man is doing nothing wrong; he's still a man and has every right to be in the locker room and shower. it's totally practical to gender segregate a locker room, it is not possible to segregate on the basis of sexual orientation.

and, finally, can we really say that "gay man is to straight man as straight man is to striaght woman"?

just how many straight men are raped by gay men?
 
Irvine511 said:

and, finally, can we really say that "gay man is to straight man as straight man is to striaght woman"?

just how many straight men are raped by gay men?

Given the notorious unreliability of rape statistics, no one has a clue whether straight men or gay men are more inclined to be rapists.


but there are lines that we're both aware of, and we're all mature enough not to cross them.

Well, this is the line I disagree with (in every possible context), and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I guess you just have more faith in random human beings than I do.
 
speedracer said:


Given the notorious unreliability of rape statistics, no one has a clue whether straight men or gay men are more inclined to be rapists.



i think that's a cop-out.



Well, this is the line I disagree with (in every possible context), and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I guess you just have more faith in random human beings than I do.


i'm not sure i understand you -- do you have any gay friends?
 
80sU2isBest said:

When a person has sex with a ridiculous number of people, it will of course increase his chances of sleeping with someone who has HIV.

My point wasn't that sex outside of marraige is a sin; my point was that irresponsible behavior increases a person's chances.

This is true. Good point.
 
Irvine511 said:

i think that's a cop-out.

I think it accurately represents our knowledge of the answer.


i'm not sure i understand you -- do you have any gay friends?

Yes, and I wouldn't feel any more uncomfortable showering in front of them than I would in front of a straight male friend.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that

Friend >>> Teammate >>>>>>>>>>> Random person.
 
Irvine511 said:




and, finally, can we really say that "gay man is to straight man as straight man is to striaght woman"?

I hope so, if not then we straights will never understand you guys :)

Never heard of a gay man raping a straight (I assume prison rape doesn't count; I don't really think those guys are actually gay). But since rape is understood to be about power, rather than sex, I'd expect there'd be gay rapists, just not as many because there are more straight men than gay men.

Good point about the differences between the male & female locker rooms. In high school our girls' rooms had stalls w/locks, no locks in the boys' stalls, and no doors on many of them. In college (UConn), in the dorm, the womens' showers had curtains between each individual shower; ours had no curtains, just the classic gang shower. And I've looked, not on purpose but everybody's in there naked, unless you're showering with your eyes closed you're bound to catch a glimpse, I don't see the big deal.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:

Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

Hardaway has reportedly been removed from further league-related appearances.



Good riddance. What a bigot. It's embarrassing that people still are saying things like this in public in 2007.
 
Re: Re: "I Hate Gay People"

verte76 said:



Good riddance. What a bigot. It's embarrassing that people still are saying things like this in public in 2007.

It's embarassing that people think it in 2007. It's just plain moronic to say things like this in public.
 
speedracer said:

Yes, and I wouldn't feel any more uncomfortable showering in front of them than I would in front of a straight male friend.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that

Friend >>> Teammate >>>>>>>>>>> Random person.



so ... ultimately this comes down to the fact that you don't want to shower with a group of guys, gay or straight?

actually, i'd rather shower with a stranger than with my best friend since i'm not likely to see the stranger again and, so, who cares what one looks like.
 
CTU2fan said:


I hope so, if not then we straights will never understand you guys :)



it's interesting, but i don't think we can say that.

i think gay men and straight men are nearly exactly the same in how their sex drives function, and i do think that heteroseuxality and homosexuality are nearly exactly the same thing in that one is attracted -- physically and emotionally -- to either the same or a different gender, and that gay relationships and straight relationships are just as wonderful and fufilling and maddening and stupid and rewarding and depressing as the other.

however, i do think there are differences due to gender differences, and i don't think that gay men lust after straight men in the way that straight men lust after straight women, and the mentioning of rape has more to do with gender inequality/power/physicality than to do with sexual orientation, if that makes sense (sorry, still working on the first cup of coffee of the day).

i will also say that there's nothing quite so acute as the pain a gay person can feel (or, i suppose the converse is true) than to be attracted to someone of a different sexual orientation, because there's no chance you'll ever be together. none. you'd have a better chance with Cameron Diaz than i will ever have with a straight man.

i suppose my main point is that this is stuff gay people have to deal with all the time. gay men know not to look too much in the shower, gay men know that straight men are off limits, gay men know that the gym is a non-sexual arena, gay men are acutely aware of the lines (often in a painful, sometimes sorrowful way) between gay and straight in a way that i don't think as many straight people are.

trust us. we're not going to sex you up in the showers, i promise.

unless you want us to ... :shifty:



:wink:



also, i'm a fellow connecticuttian. :wave:
 
I was recently abroad (for academic purposes). There was a large group travelling from the law school and we had to occupy two hotels. They paired us up for the double rooms by gender. Upon arrival we realized that one hotel had 2 single beds pushed together, the other hotel had double beds.

Reaction from girls: none, we went to sleep even though half of us had never met our roommate before.

Reaction from guys in hotel 1: drop all their bags in the hall and immediately proceed to rearrange all the furniture so the two single beds were as far away from one another as humanly possible.

Reaction from guys in hotel 2: one of the guys would sleep ON THE FLOOR for the 4 nights, while the other had the bed.

Now you tell me why it is that none of the girls felt like the other girl would accost them in the middle of the night and yet all the guys immediately feared for their sexual integrity. It's beyond ridiculous if you ask me.
 
It's called a Double Standard.
In the US, 2 straight women can dance with each other and that's ok.
If 2 straight guys dance with each other, they're gay.
I don't know. I went to Vegas a few years back with all of my straight male friends and each room came with two double beds, but we had no problem sharing beds.
I guess it all depends how you were raised.
 
Irvine511 said:

trust us. we're not going to sex you up in the showers, i promise.

Never? This discussion was also going on at another forum I visit frequently. A couple men there did report receiving unwanted attention down there from other men in a communal shower. There is a nonzero chance of this sort of stuff happening, unless you automatically label these people as subhuman abominations.

I thought "tolerance" meant coexisting with people whose views are different from yours -- which in the setting of a locker room might mean putting up individual shower stalls, or mutually negotiating a deal where people who don't feel comfortable shower at different times if someone needs to shower before leaving-- instead of proclaiming that this one viewpoint is The Truth and that everyone better deal.

Neanderthal Man isn't getting a very good wireless signal over here in his cave, so this will probably be my final post in the thread -- I think I've said everything I want to say anyway.
 
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speedracer said:


Never? This discussion was also going on at another forum I visit frequently. A couple men there did report receiving unwanted attention down there from other men in a communal shower. There is a nonzero chance of this sort of stuff happening, unless you automatically label these people as subhuman abominations.



oh please. there's never a never. of course some people are idiots, and what's to be sure that these aren't "straight" married men looking for an NSA blow-job? but thanks for the "report" from the trenches straight men have been forced to build so as not to be leered at by the desperate homos pawing at their netherregions.

you've, again, furthered the case for your own homophobia and insecurity and i would suggest that you continue to shower at home since that's probably the only way you're going to feel comfortable.
 
speedracer said:

I thought "tolerance" meant coexisting with people whose views are different from yours -- which in the setting of a locker room might mean putting up individual shower stalls, or mutually negotiating a deal where people who don't feel comfortable shower at different times if someone needs to shower before leaving-- instead of proclaiming that this one viewpoint is The Truth and that everyone better deal.



and this bugs me a bit.

tolerance isn't about making everyone feel good about their own prejudices and insecurities. i will absolutely say that there is The Truth when it comes to locker rooms -- you can't bar gay people from them on the off-posibility that some straight men might feel uncomfortable. tolerance isn't about saying that every idea has equal merit. it is about providing the space to battle out all different ideas. and, sorry, but i haven't seen a single idea put forth that is an apt defense of either Hardaway's comments or a reasonable understanding of the quivering fear straight men feel at the idea of a homo in the locker room. some ideas are better defended than others, some thoughts are more defensible than others. tolerance allows the space to try out all ideas but it does not excuse sloppy thinking.
 
My question is this: why do most heterosexual men get disgusted by homosexual men, but are turned on by homosexual women? Why is there a difference?


Oh, and Tim Hardaway just proved himself to be a disturbed and hateful man.
 
onebloodonelife said:
My question is this: why do most heterosexual men get disgusted by homosexual men, but are turned on by homosexual women? Why is there a difference?


Because it's "double" of what they're attracted to (if you're talking in terms of why straight men like to watch women kiss, etc.). Simple as that.

I once had a guy explain it to me by this: "you can watch two people have sex, and there's no penis in the way"

Yeah, he wasn't a homophobe. Not at all.
 
LarryMullen's_POPAngel said:


Because it's "double" of what they're attracted to (if you're talking in terms of why straight men like to watch women kiss, etc.). Simple as that.

I once had a guy explain it to me by this: "you can watch two people have sex, and there's no penis in the way"

Yeah, he wasn't a homophobe. Not at all.

Um, yeah :rolleyes: I just think it's hilarious (not in a good way) that guys can say, "Ew, gay guys." then turn around and say, "Oh, yay, lesbians." It makes no sense to me...:shrug:
 
Hardaway proved himself an ignorant bufoon. His poor attempt at retraction and apology doesn't work either. Very pathetic for anyone this day and age, let alone any kind of celebrity to make such stupid remarks in public.
 
I don't know which is worse:
1-Saying in an interview that you hate gay people.
2-Shortly thereafter, sticking by what you said when confronted about it.
3-Apologizing for what you said when you realized you shouldn't have said it publicly and now the whole world knows you're a homophobe and you lose all of your jobs because of it.

I guess Tim Hardaway did us all a huge favor. Not only did the NBA fire his ass, but so did the CBA.
 
[q]Where Tim Hardaway Was Right
By Michael Medved
Wednesday, February 21, 2007

Recent comments by retired basketball star Tim (“I hate gay people”) Hardaway did serious damage to his image and career but also unwittingly raised serious cultural issues about sexuality and gender.

Hardaway appropriately apologized for his harsh remarks, but many (if not most) Americans no doubt share his instinctive reluctance to share showers and locker rooms with open homosexuals. That reluctance also explains the controversial Defense Department policy that prevents out-of-the-closet gays from serving in the United States military.

In the wake of the nearly-universal condemnation of Tim Hardaway’s statements to a radio interviewer, the substantive issue remains. Is it a reasonable for an NBA basketball player (or a soldier in basic training, for that matter) to feel uncomfortable sharing intimate quarters with a homosexual, or does this represent an outrageous, irrational fear? In response to the Hardaway controversy, several sports columnists compared his resistance to the idea of playing alongside gay teammates to the racism of previous years when white players tried to avoid competing with (or against) blacks.

The analogy is ridiculous, of course. There is no rational basis for discomfort at playing with athletes of another race since science and experience show that human racial differences remain insignificant. The much better analogy for discomfort at gay teammates involves the widespread (and generally accepted) idea that women and men shouldn’t share locker rooms. Making gay males unwelcome in the intimate circumstances of an NBA team makes just as much sense as making straight males unwelcome in the showers for a women’s team at the WNBA. Most female athletes would prefer not to shower together with men not because they hate males (though some of them no doubt do), but because they hope to avoid the tension, distraction and complication that prove inevitable when issues of sexual attraction (and even arousal) intrude into the arena of competitive sports.

Tim Hardaway (and most of his former NBA teammates) wouldn’t welcome openly gay players into the locker room any more than they’d welcome profoundly unattractive, morbidly obese women. I specify unattractive females because if a young lady is attractive (or, even better, downright “hot”) most guys, very much including the notorious love machines of the National Basketball Association, would probably welcome her joining their showers. The ill-favored, grossly overweight female is the right counterpart to a gay male because, like the homosexual, she causes discomfort due to the fact that attraction can only operate in one direction. She might well feel drawn to the straight guys with whom she’s grouped, while they feel downright repulsed at the very idea of sex with her.

Many gay activists suggest that this near-universal straight male repulsion at the idea of sex with another man is merely the product of cultural conditioning: a learned prejudice that ought to be unlearned. This represents the core message of gay pride parades and even the drive for same-sex marriage: an effort to persuade all of society that gay sex is as beautiful as straight sex, and to “cure” men of their visceral disgust at the very thought of what two (or more) male homosexuals do with one another.

According to the “enlightened” advocates of gay liberation, this disgust gets to the very essence of “homophobia” – an altogether unjustified fear and distaste for male-on-male physical intimacy. When Hardaway says “I hate gay people” what he suggests at the deepest level is that he feels revolted by the very notion of same-sex eroticism and that he’d prefer not to face the distraction of such thoughts in the locker room or on the court.

In this sense, the reluctance to team (in athletics or the military) with announced homosexuals isn’t bigotry, it’s common sense. The recent “Astronaut Love Triangle” provides a pointed reminder of the way that even disciplined military careerists can be diverted, even ruined, by attraction, eroticism and romance.

Those who insist that basketball teams or submarine crews must welcome gay recruits must, for the sake of consistency, argue for the same welcome to teammates of the opposite gender. That notion – that a male player could, for instance, join a WNBA team without serious problems – shows the way that political correctness now seems to deny the obvious, often overwhelming potency of human sexuality.

Those who suggest that a guy could shower with young female athletes without risk of arousal, or that a gay guy could shower with young male athletes with problems or discomfort, don’t merely defy common sense. They ignore human nature.


Michael Medved is a film critic, best-selling author and nationally syndicated radio talk show host.[/q]
 
anitram said:


Now you tell me why it is that none of the girls felt like the other girl would accost them in the middle of the night and yet all the guys immediately feared for their sexual integrity. It's beyond ridiculous if you ask me.

You're not a heterosexual man, so you'll never understand. It's okay. I'll never understand women or homosexual men.
 
I could tear that article to shreds, but to do so would justify it, and this screed doesn't even deserve to be used as toilet paper.
 
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