I Don't Like Conservatism - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-14-2001, 07:55 AM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 04:48 PM
I Don't Like Conservatism

These are my opinions. Feel free to respond, knowing 1) this isn't the gospel truth, and 2) I do not intend to offend anyone personally. If you do not agree to these terms, then get out of this topic!

1) I think conservatism is inherently evil. I think it is evil wearing a shroud of goodness...perhaps the greatest evil of them all. I think it is conservatives that advance the destruction of the world in their attempts to 'save the world.' And, of course, I cannot prove this. It is something that has sat in the annals of my conscience for years.

2) Conservatism tends to expouse religion, but they are wrong 75% of the time. I have read chapter-verse quotes on signs to justify hatred of people, and when I go back to my own Bible, I find it has nothing to do with what they hate. I have read more conservative translations of the Bible and they are generally the loosest in their translations! More 'liberal' translations use their basis on the original Greek/Hebrew words. 'Conservative' translations tend to just use the traditional translation and just expound on it. For instance, in a copy of the NIV, the Sodom and Gomorrah passage states, 'Bring out your men so that we may have sex with them.' I couldn't be more angrier on that, especially since the word, 'sex,' isn't even used in the Hebrew text. I would have preferred the original translation, 'Bring out your men so that we may know them.' Why? This passage is quoted like 5 different times later in the Bible and they don't refer to it as meaning anything sexual. I think it is poor scholarship mounted with conservative bigotry.

3) Conservatism expound religion, while also expounding vicious free-market capitalism. Once again, the advancement of the destruction of the world (e.g., sinking the third-world into poverty and subservience to multinational corporations), while thinking they are doing good.

4) Conservatism forces their beliefs onto everyone else. Liberalism, while you may not like it, at least gives you the option to choose your fate. If it were up to extreme conservatives, there would be maybe 5 religions--all Calvinist Protestant sects. We wouldn't be allowed to do anything--liquor would probably be banned, all non-Christians would be either killed or wholly silenced, homosexuals would be killed, movies would be censored, free speech would be censored, schools would teach nothing but tripe interspersed with religion, science would die altogether as all things that contradict the Bible would be made devoid, pseudo-science would reign, media would be a Soviet-style propaganda arm, and we'd be forced to the whims of some theocratic despot. We'd have repeated many of the same mistakes that led to the Reformation. In liberalism, at least, you're fully allowed to do most of these things if you really want to as long as you don't hurt anyone.

5) It's just as hypocritical as any of their complaints against liberals--while complaining of 'liberal censorship,' they have plenty of their own censorship. Whatever happened to that post by Satan? It was definitely bordering on poor taste, but, in reading it, it has just as much a place on this forum as anything here. It never went out of hand, but because conservatives didn't like the scathing criticism of their ideology, it was closed. And yet, a generally baseless original post on hating liberalism was upheld. How interesting.

6) It's incredibly revisionist. Look at the 'Founding Fathers' tripe we hear. We always hear how the founding fathers intended America to be this Christian state, but it couldn't be more wrong! Most all of our founding fathers were agnostics or believers of what the 700 Club would call, 'New-Age religions.' Christianity went into a decline in the Americas first after the failure of Puritanism after the witch trials and almost completely after the collapse of the Anglicanism with the British defeat in the American revolution. Our founding fathers were heavily influenced by Enlightenment religions that came out of the French Revolution. By the time that Christianity became reborn in America, it was 1838 and they were all dead. When Jefferson wrote his treatise on the 'separation of church and state' in the First Amendment in 1801 (which is where that phrase came from), he meant exactly as it's currently interpreted. He'd be rolling in his grave over the current 'faith-based' plan that Bush has. Plus, need I remind you, the 'one nation under God' part of the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't originally in there. It was added by President Eisenhower in the mid-1950s.

7) Read that 'I'm a Bad American' post. Need I say more?

Well, overall, what I want out of this post is a real discussion--no calls for deletion. And no, I'm not some unmovable individual. I'm always more than happy to modify my beliefs...that's what a discussion is all about.

Take care all, and to the conservatives in this forum: don't take what I wrote personally. It's a post on an ideology, not the people in here. I would be genuinely interested in what you have to say on this post, as long as it's a fairly intelligent retort.

Melon

------------------
«Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.» - Hui-neng (638-713)
__________________

melon is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 10:04 AM   #2
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 04:48 PM
Melon, you and I really know how to stir things up, don't we?

At least YOU had the foresight to spell out in black and white that you don't intend to offend.
__________________

80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 11:05 AM   #3
Babyface
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6
Local Time: 09:48 PM
melon, you have a very large ego. This is obvious by your drive to prove that you are right. You always have to start a post refuting what others believe if it isn't what you believe or agree with.

Pride does indeed come before the fall.

Simon Adebisi is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 11:39 AM   #4
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
These are my opinions. Feel free to respond, knowing 1) this isn't the gospel truth, and 2) I do not intend to offend anyone personally. If you do not agree to these terms, then get out of this topic!

1) I think conservatism is inherently evil. I think it is evil wearing a shroud of goodness...perhaps the greatest evil of them all. I think it is conservatives that advance the destruction of the world in their attempts to 'save the world.' And, of course, I cannot prove this. It is something that has sat in the annals of my conscience for years.

2) Conservatism tends to expouse religion, but they are wrong 75% of the time. I have read chapter-verse quotes on signs to justify hatred of people, and when I go back to my own Bible, I find it has nothing to do with what they hate. I have read more conservative translations of the Bible and they are generally the loosest in their translations! More 'liberal' translations use their basis on the original Greek/Hebrew words. 'Conservative' translations tend to just use the traditional translation and just expound on it. For instance, in a copy of the NIV, the Sodom and Gomorrah passage states, 'Bring out your men so that we may have sex with them.' I couldn't be more angrier on that, especially since the word, 'sex,' isn't even used in the Hebrew text. I would have preferred the original translation, 'Bring out your men so that we may know them.' Why? This passage is quoted like 5 different times later in the Bible and they don't refer to it as meaning anything sexual. I think it is poor scholarship mounted with conservative bigotry.

3) Conservatism expound religion, while also expounding vicious free-market capitalism. Once again, the advancement of the destruction of the world (e.g., sinking the third-world into poverty and subservience to multinational corporations), while thinking they are doing good.

4) Conservatism forces their beliefs onto everyone else. Liberalism, while you may not like it, at least gives you the option to choose your fate. If it were up to extreme conservatives, there would be maybe 5 religions--all Calvinist Protestant sects. We wouldn't be allowed to do anything--liquor would probably be banned, all non-Christians would be either killed or wholly silenced, homosexuals would be killed, movies would be censored, free speech would be censored, schools would teach nothing but tripe interspersed with religion, science would die altogether as all things that contradict the Bible would be made devoid, pseudo-science would reign, media would be a Soviet-style propaganda arm, and we'd be forced to the whims of some theocratic despot. We'd have repeated many of the same mistakes that led to the Reformation. In liberalism, at least, you're fully allowed to do most of these things if you really want to as long as you don't hurt anyone.

5) It's just as hypocritical as any of their complaints against liberals--while complaining of 'liberal censorship,' they have plenty of their own censorship. Whatever happened to that post by Satan? It was definitely bordering on poor taste, but, in reading it, it has just as much a place on this forum as anything here. It never went out of hand, but because conservatives didn't like the scathing criticism of their ideology, it was closed. And yet, a generally baseless original post on hating liberalism was upheld. How interesting.

6) It's incredibly revisionist. Look at the 'Founding Fathers' tripe we hear. We always hear how the founding fathers intended America to be this Christian state, but it couldn't be more wrong! Most all of our founding fathers were agnostics or believers of what the 700 Club would call, 'New-Age religions.' Christianity went into a decline in the Americas first after the failure of Puritanism after the witch trials and almost completely after the collapse of the Anglicanism with the British defeat in the American revolution. Our founding fathers were heavily influenced by Enlightenment religions that came out of the French Revolution. By the time that Christianity became reborn in America, it was 1838 and they were all dead. When Jefferson wrote his treatise on the 'separation of church and state' in the First Amendment in 1801 (which is where that phrase came from), he meant exactly as it's currently interpreted. He'd be rolling in his grave over the current 'faith-based' plan that Bush has. Plus, need I remind you, the 'one nation under God' part of the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't originally in there. It was added by President Eisenhower in the mid-1950s.

7) Read that 'I'm a Bad American' post. Need I say more?

Well, overall, what I want out of this post is a real discussion--no calls for deletion. And no, I'm not some unmovable individual. I'm always more than happy to modify my beliefs...that's what a discussion is all about.

Take care all, and to the conservatives in this forum: don't take what I wrote personally. It's a post on an ideology, not the people in here. I would be genuinely interested in what you have to say on this post, as long as it's a fairly intelligent retort.
Melon
My rebuttal, point by point:
1)Point one is, you have admitted, pure unprovable opinion on your part, so there is no way or need to argue it. We all have opinions.
2)You do realize that when you speak of Conservatives who twist the scriptures to justify their hate you are speaking about a VERY VERY SMALL group of people, don't you? Even here in the BIble belt, you don't hear that stuff much. Also, surely as the Hebrew Scholar that you are, you are aware that the term "to know" Biblically means "to have sex with", right?
3)I'm sorry, but Point 3 is just silly. To claim that conservative support of capitalism is destroying the world is completely baseless and unsupportd by facts.
4)You couldn't be further from the truth, Melon. In fact, conservatives fight for freedom for everyone. Does your anger have anything to do with the fact that most conservatives don't believe in legalizing gay marriage?
5)This is another one that is just plain silly. What makes you think that the "Satan" post was deleted because Conservatives were upset? If that were the case, wouldn't all the anti-George W. Bush posts have been deleted also? Also, you seem to forget that much of that Satan post was against New World Order (Globalism at its extreme), which is a very liberally-supported issue.

6)Some of the founding fathers were indeed followers of "new age" religion, but you can hardly say "most". Many were Christians. Most of the others, while not Christian in the sense that God takes an active part in our lives, were at least Believers in God, who followed the Deism, which was a popular belief of the day that the world is like a clock that God winds up and watches wind down, w/out taking an active role. But teh belief in God is still there. And believe me, I studied these things in college, so I priobably know as much about it as you.

7)I believed in much of what Mr. Nugent wrote.
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 12:23 PM   #5
Refugee
 
bonoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Edmonton, Canada- Charlestown, Ireland
Posts: 1,398
Local Time: 02:48 PM
time to sit back and watch some of the powerhouses play. Take notes and learn.

------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
bonoman is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 12:38 PM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 10:48 PM
..and laugh!

Don't forget that one!
DrTeeth is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 12:41 PM   #7
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 399
Local Time: 09:48 PM
I don't like Mondays.
Trash Can is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 04:36 PM   #8
The Fly
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: LA
Posts: 82
Local Time: 09:48 PM
This is such a silly thread.

~rougerum



[This message has been edited by Henry Rollins (edited 08-14-2001).]
Henry Rollins is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 05:26 PM   #9
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 31
Local Time: 09:48 PM
Sorry!



[This message has been edited by Cathy (edited 08-14-2001).]
Cathy is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 02:54 AM   #10
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 04:48 PM
tickle the duke, useless pricks

translation: go f*** yourselves, douchebags
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 08:14 AM   #11
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
tickle the duke, useless pricks

translation: go f*** yourselves, douchebags
That's nice.

80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 05:35 PM   #12
The Fly
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: LA
Posts: 82
Local Time: 09:48 PM
The new cinamon apple jacks taste alright but not as good as the original.

~rougerum
Henry Rollins is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 06:55 PM   #13
Babyface
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in the daylight
Posts: 11
Local Time: 09:48 PM
err I'm not very good at arguing points but I think conservatism is meant to keep guidelines of respect for others in our society but i'm prolly completely wrong

well actually I am anyway, because it's just a good excuse to be narrow-minded. here's one: is it truly possible to be conservative and yet totally accepting of anything? I think it is cos if you but out of everyone's business, you can live your life conservatively and yet happily coexist with anything

sure that made a lot of sense! lol
shadow is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 03:03 AM   #14
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 399
Local Time: 09:48 PM
I don't like Mullett haircuts.
Trash Can is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 03:13 AM   #15
the invisible woman
 
SweetOnU2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Bono's Lap
Posts: 2,629
Local Time: 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Trash Can:
I don't like Mullett haircuts.



.... this is very interesting!



------------------
~*Dream Out loud*~

(º·.¸(¨*·.¸ ¸.·*¨)¸.·º)
«.·°·. *Monica* .·°·.»
(¸.·º(¸.·¨* *¨·.¸)º·.)
SweetOnU2 is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 07:15 AM   #16
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Simon Adebisi:
melon, you have a very large ego. This is obvious by your drive to prove that you are right. You always have to start a post refuting what others believe if it isn't what you believe or agree with.

Pride does indeed come before the fall.

Just shut up. It's just that simple. In case you haven't noticed, I've been criticizing conservatives for as long as I've been here; and this is, really, the first time I've ever spelled out why. You, on the other hand, offer nothing of any substance to this forum, aside from complaints about what I write. Well, at least, I add to the discussion, which is more than I can say about you.

In case you cannot use your optic nerves, read my first point before I wrote it: 1) this isn't the gospel truth. When someone wholly criticizes my beliefs, I defend them, just as I'm sure you would do the same.

As for 'the fall,' I don't know about you, but I don't take this forum seriously at all. This is probably the least important thing I do, and, actually, I use it for stream-of-consciousness writing (mostly). In fact, I just came up with the greatest novel idea after all of this airing out. You may think I'm falling, dear Simon, but I'm just beginning to rise.

Melon

------------------
«Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.» - Hui-neng (638-713)
melon is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 07:41 AM   #17
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
My rebuttal, point by point:
1)Point one is, you have admitted, pure unprovable opinion on your part, so there is no way or need to argue it. We all have opinions.
True, true.

Quote:
2)You do realize that when you speak of Conservatives who twist the scriptures to justify their hate you are speaking about a VERY VERY SMALL group of people, don't you? Even here in the BIble belt, you don't hear that stuff much. Also, surely as the Hebrew Scholar that you are, you are aware that the term "to know" Biblically means "to have sex with", right?
I am not saying you are this way, 80s, or even 90% of your fellow conservatives. The problem is is that those 10% fanatics weald great power in the Legislature, several PACs, and in running high-profile religious organizations. It is this 10% that makes me violently ill.

Quote:
3)I'm sorry, but Point 3 is just silly. To claim that conservative support of capitalism is destroying the world is completely baseless and unsupportd by facts.
I just see it as hypocritical from my point of view. Conservatives in the 1920s and the 1980s (coincidentally, both fundamentalist revivals) were on the sides of those who amassed large fortunes and supported laissez-faire capitalism, often at the expense of the working class. It's only ironic that it was those who labelled themselves as 'religious' were the ones being the biggest bastards.

Quote:
4)You couldn't be further from the truth, Melon. In fact, conservatives fight for freedom for everyone. Does your anger have anything to do with the fact that most conservatives don't believe in legalizing gay marriage?
My anger goes into the fact that conservatives are the ones fighting against adding them to non-discrimination laws. Conservatives may deem it unnecessary, but courts have, time and time again, shown that they are not protected against discrimination. Just imagine now if you were fired from your job because you were heterosexual? It's perfectly legal, mind you. In fact, I think I will do it a few dozen times in my own company. Reason fired will be listed as 'I just didn't like the heterosexual.'

Also, forget marriage in the moral term. That's wholly up to you and your church. I'm talking the legal rights in marriage. In fact, I think we should abolish all civil marriage and just have everyone be able to sign 'domestic partnership' contracts. Like a 'marriage license,' you could use it in conjunction with a wedding ceremony--whether in a church or not--or you can just be able to sign it. Any two consenting adults should be able to sign it. It could be used in a case of a person and a caregiver, whereupon the caregiver could assume the same rights as a 'spouse' if you would like to say. This is different than 'power of attorney,' which would force the person to terminate their own rights and surrender them all to the caregiver. Of course, this could work in the case of homosexuals or heterosexuals. Hence, conservatives won't have to worry about it being 'marriage'--it will just be a legal status. 'Marriage' will finally be relegated to a fully religious ceremony, which is what I think it should have been all along.

Quote:
5)This is another one that is just plain silly. What makes you think that the "Satan" post was deleted because Conservatives were upset? If that were the case, wouldn't all the anti-George W. Bush posts have been deleted also? Also, you seem to forget that much of that Satan post was against New World Order (Globalism at its extreme), which is a very liberally-supported issue.
Well, I would disagree. Globalism is the target of destruction for liberals--remember all the WTO protests? It's only ironic, because I do know that, historically, conservatives were isolationist! But there is a major difference: conservatives insist on isolationism on the political front, while having economic globalism--hence, free trade. Liberals are isolationist on the economic front, only because we know that American jobs are lost when company X closes their plant in the U.S. and moves to the Phillipines, where wages are only a small fraction of what an American would make. Liberals are globalists on the political arena, insisting that the U.S. take an active role in diplomacy--i.e., peace talks, U.N., etc.

Quote:
6)Some of the founding fathers were indeed followers of "new age" religion, but you can hardly say "most". Many were Christians. Most of the others, while not Christian in the sense that God takes an active part in our lives, were at least Believers in God, who followed the Deism, which was a popular belief of the day that the world is like a clock that God winds up and watches wind down, w/out taking an active role. But teh belief in God is still there. And believe me, I studied these things in college, so I priobably know as much about it as you.
Well, I am glad you, at least, know what I'm talking about. However, I would hardly call 'Deism' a Christian religion. I don't think they even believed in Jesus or the Bible. I do agree that the general populace was still Christian, but my argument, overall, was that our founding fathers did not intend for a Christian state, whether overt or latent. Agree or disagree, but they did agree with the current interpretation of separation of church and state, contrary to Pat Robertson's argument that it was only a 'liberal lie.'

Quote:
7)I believed in much of what Mr. Nugent wrote.
That is, of course, a matter of opinion.

Thanks for keeping this civil.

Melon

------------------
«Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.» - Hui-neng (638-713)
melon is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 12:12 PM   #18
Babyface
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6
Local Time: 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon: As for 'the fall,' I don't know about you, but I don't take this forum seriously at all. This is probably the least important thing I do, and, actually, I use it for stream-of-consciousness writing (mostly).
Melon
If you didn't take this forum seriously, you wouldn't take as much time proving your point on EVERY issue that comes this way. The homosexual issue several months ago was something that you took very seriously evidenced by your hate for Quick Vick and the 2,000 word posts you posted attempting to prove your point on the issue.

How are you beginning to 'rise', by the way and what is your 'great' novel idea?

Simon Adebisi is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 01:39 PM   #19
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 399
Local Time: 09:48 PM
I don't like alarm clocks in the morning.
Trash Can is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 02:02 PM   #20
War Child
 
Matthew_Page2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 873
Local Time: 02:48 PM
Well Conservatives invented alarm clocks, so there you go.

MP
__________________

Matthew_Page2000 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×