Hypothetical Abortion Situations...

[melon]

I was thinking about this recently. Are there ever reasons that you'd support having an abortion? Here are some unlikely, but still realistic scenarios, and I'd be curious to know one's personal reaction:

1) A woman and her husband are trying to get pregnant, and there have been difficulties that have lasted years. In an unfortunate circumstance, the woman is raped and is then later found to be pregnant by the rapist. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

2) A pregnant woman, after getting a test done, discovers that the fetus has tested positive for a chromosomal abnormality that will leave him severely mentally impaired, such that he will be incapable of taking care of himself for the rest of his life. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

3) The fetus has tested positive for an incurable, severe skin disease called "Harlequin-type ichthyosis," which will leave your child severely deformed (some pictures of these babies have been misused on "shock sites" as "alien babies"), not to mention having skin as hard as armor. Mentally, the child will have normal intelligence capabilities, but will require lifelong, vigorous skin treatments that will never cure it and will still leave the child as severely deformed as he was born. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

4) The fetus has been determined to have anencephaly, meaning that it has brain defects so severe that, if it even survives to birth, it will die within a matter of hours or days. Additionally, since it has been determined to have anenchephaly, it has nothing but a brain stem, meaning that, not only is the child blind, deaf, and incapable of pain, but that it will never ever achieve consciousness. If you were the woman, would you still try to deliver to term a child that has zero chance of survival, not to mention one that would look like a highly deformed "troll-like" creature?

Just curious. There's obviously no right or wrong answers, but some people in life are going to be faced with rather tough decisions like this. I'd be curious how people here would in these rare, but possible situations.

Melon

 

[A_Wanderer]

Every one of these situations seem like valid cases for abortion and I would tilt towards it, if it was my genetic material involved (except in the rape case) then I would support the womans decision whichever way it may go, although in the case of anencephaly (while checking spelling just a FU to google images new automated system) I think I would be very supportive of taking medical advice on the matter which would be abortion.

 

[redkat]

It's her right to choose no matter what.

However for #2 the test commonly done (AFP) alpha - fetoprotein has a high false positive rate. A friend of mine was encouraged to abort after hers which determined the baby to have severe abnormalities.

Her daughter is completely normal.

 

[wizard2c]

reply

Curiosity...yes Melon......curiosity.......that's what makes life interesting. Always keep them guessing.

 

[melon]

I don't want this to turn into third person.

I want you to pretend to be this woman. I don't care about the laws. I understand the macro-level "pro-life"/"pro-choice" debate.

I want you to put yourself in this hypothetical woman's shoes, and make a "Yes" or "No" decision. That's my intent. When a few people have answered, I'll post my answers.

And, yes, #2 is an interesting question. There are false positives, so it adds another dimension: are you willing to trust the test or are you willing to buck it?

"Yes" or "No." That's what I'm interested in here.

Melon

 

[deep]

I know several people that would only terminate example one.

2,3 and 4 would be God's will.

and I respect their "right to choose".


For myself, not being married, it is too hypothetical for me to answer.

However, again I respect each person's "right to choose".

 

[deep]

I don't want this to turn into third person.

Melon

sorry,

i'll get back after my gf leaves

 

[anitram]

I would probably have an abortion in all 4 cases. #2 is the only one on the list that I may vacillate on.

Rape? No question.

Ichthyosis gives you a prognosis of survival into adolescence, if you're "lucky" and all of those years will be lived out in agony.

Anencephaly is a 100% sure abortion to me. No questions at all, really. Although I have a good friend whose parents are very religious (incidentally they are both MDs) and she had a brother who was born anencephalitic. They knew in advance but did not want the abortion. He died 32 hours later. The other children said later that they wish they hadn't seen him and had to go through that death. So I think in this instance you have to consider the broader family.

When it comes to any type of genetic abnormality, particularly where the child has a very limited lifespan, I would tend to consider the family as a unit. I grew up with a guy who had a severely mentally challenged sister. His parents lives revolved around hre 24/7. When he turned 18, he couldn't wait to get out of the house. Went to college as far away as he could afford it and stayed there. I couldn't really blame him.

 

[financeguy]

There's obviously no right or wrong answers,

Oh dear.

 

[melon]

Re: Re: Hypothetical Abortion Situations...

Oh dear.

Heh...you know what I mean!

Melon

 

[Angela Harlem]

1) A woman and her husband are trying to get pregnant, and there have been difficulties that have lasted years. In an unfortunate circumstance, the woman is raped and is then later found to be pregnant by the rapist. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

I am honestly not sure. I hate to be one of these people, but until I had my own children I thought I was one who could decide for abortion, but I am honestly not sure now. I think I would not abort. I'd probably keep the baby and seek many ways to adjust and cope with the emotional aspect.

2) A pregnant woman, after getting a test done, discovers that the fetus has tested positive for a chromosomal abnormality that will leave him severely mentally impaired, such that he will be incapable of taking care of himself for the rest of his life. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

Again, I think abortion at this stage is out of the question, though perfectly legal. These tests are done at 19-21 weeks. I had ultrasounds every few weeks for both my pregnancies and could not abort such a developed baby. Life is luck. This baby would still be loved.

3) The fetus has tested positive for an incurable, severe skin disease called "Harlequin-type ichthyosis," which will leave your child severely deformed (some pictures of these babies have been misused on "shock sites" as "alien babies"), not to mention having skin as hard as armor. Mentally, the child will have normal intelligence capabilities, but will require lifelong, vigorous skin treatments that will never cure it and will still leave the child as severely deformed as he was born. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

Abortion due to superficial deformity. Could not do it. I can be naively and dumbly hopeful at times. This would be one.

4) The fetus has been determined to have anencephaly, meaning that it has brain defects so severe that, if it even survives to birth, it will die within a matter of hours or days. Additionally, since it has been determined to have anenchephaly, it has nothing but a brain stem, meaning that, not only is the child blind, deaf, and incapable of pain, but that it will never ever achieve consciousness. If you were the woman, would you still try to deliver to term a child that has zero chance of survival, not to mention one that would look like a highly deformed "troll-like" creature?

There is no reason to abort this child, in my view. The child will die at nature's hand. Cry, mourn, bury the child, name him/her, despair what never was and what could have been.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I would have an abortion in all 4 cases.

 

[U2democrat]

Honestly I don't think we could ever know how we would decide. It's easy to put ourselves in a hypothetical situation from the comfort of our computers, but until something like one of the scenarios listed actually happens to one of us (heaven forbid), then we'll never actually know. To talk about what you would do if you were raped could be very different from what would happen if you really were raped.

Not the answer you want to hear but it's what I feel. I just can't put myself in those hypothetical situations because I know that if I were seriously in one of those positions I'd probably have a range of different emotions like never before.

Beyond that, I support the right to choose.

 

[AcrobatMan]

If I were a girl/women


A) Abortion

B) Abortion

C) Abortion

D) Abortion

but for B),C),D) - the report must be 100% accurate -

not so difficult

 

[joyfulgirl]

I know several people that would only terminate example one.

2,3 and 4 would be God's will.

By the God's will logic, why wouldn't #1 be God's will as well? That's one thing I've never understood about Christianity...some things are designated as God's will while others are the result of man's free will, as though God is not also in control of man's free will, or as though people can decide what is God's will and what is not. But I agree with you that this is how some people see it, and I'm not trying to divert the thread.

 

[melon]

Re: Re: Hypothetical Abortion Situations...

Abortion due to superficial deformity. Could not do it. I can be naively and dumbly hopeful at times. This would be one.

Well, just to note, it's generally more than just a superficial deformity. There a link within that link I posted above that shows rather graphic pictures of babies with this disease, and it was what prompted me to pose these questions, actually. It really made me wonder whether it was more compassionate to have an abortion in that instance. I would also say that this disease alone should be proof that there's no such thing as "intelligent design."

But, obviously, there have been families that have found a way to deal with this disease, and there's even a case of a family that decided to have another child who had this disease, after the doctors told them that they had a high likelihood of having another child with it.

There is no reason to abort this child, in my view. The child will die at nature's hand. Cry, mourn, bury the child, name him/her, despair what never was and what could have been.

Interestingly enough, the statistics say that 95% of women in this situation choose to abort. Just a statistic for everyone that I thought I'd throw out there.

Melon

 

[VertigoGal]

I'd support a woman's decision to abort in any of those cases, it's her right etc etc and I can definitely see why you would in each case. But I really think that I could only personally bring myself to abort in the case of #4. I really don't think I could do it otherwise.

 

[Liesje]

Assuming that the "tests" you're referring to are/would be 100% accurate (as in, there's no chance the "test" would reveal that the baby is handicapped, but then the baby could come out normal).....

1) A woman and her husband are trying to get pregnant, and there have been difficulties that have lasted years. In an unfortunate circumstance, the woman is raped and is then later found to be pregnant by the rapist. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

Yes, I'd keep the child, or offer it to an adoption agency. However, the more likely thing would be that after I was rape, I'd report it to authorities, then the hospital would do a rape kit, which includes the Morning After pill. If for some reason I remained pregnant, I would not abort the baby. Also, Phil says he would not support me having an abortion, but would support keeping the baby or offering it for adoption.

2) A pregnant woman, after getting a test done, discovers that the fetus has tested positive for a chromosomal abnormality that will leave him severely mentally impaired, such that he will be incapable of taking care of himself for the rest of his life. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

I would not abort a baby because of a disease or abnormality unless the child would be in physical pain and have absolutely no quality of life. It's hard to say here because you don't mention anything about pain or quality of life. People who will always need constant care can still be happy. Also, if the fetus were already at the stage where abortion would physically cause the fetus pain (the fetus reacts to being poked and such), then no I would no abort.

3) The fetus has tested positive for an incurable, severe skin disease called "Harlequin-type ichthyosis," which will leave your child severely deformed (some pictures of these babies have been misused on "shock sites" as "alien babies"), not to mention having skin as hard as armor. Mentally, the child will have normal intelligence capabilities, but will require lifelong, vigorous skin treatments that will never cure it and will still leave the child as severely deformed as he was born. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

Yes, I would keep the child. I saw a show on kids with this disease and they were able to go to school, had jobs, friends, etc. Of course the disease was a huge part of their lives, but they had established a routine and I was surprised by how well adjusted they were. Some of the girls were participating in more activities than I did as a child.

4) The fetus has been determined to have anencephaly, meaning that it has brain defects so severe that, if it even survives to birth, it will die within a matter of hours or days. Additionally, since it has been determined to have anenchephaly, it has nothing but a brain stem, meaning that, not only is the child blind, deaf, and incapable of pain, but that it will never ever achieve consciousness. If you were the woman, would you still try to deliver to term a child that has zero chance of survival, not to mention one that would look like a highly deformed "troll-like" creature?

Depends on the risk of the pregnancy and how far along the fetus is. I don't know much about the science behind it, but it seems to me that once a fetus reaches a stage where these tests can be conclusive, to me personally it would be too late to abort the baby. In a case like above, I'd probably carry the baby, pray for a miracle, and if it died right away, at least I'd be able to name it, love it for a few hours, and give it a proper burial and go through the grieving process knowing I'd given the child a chance.

 

[wizard2c]

reply

Melon.....have you drawn any good conclusion from your hypothetical situation?
Just wondering.....but I do that a lot.

BTW...another good source of those trinkets are the free internet discs that are left free for the take at supermarkets and store entrances....the CDs always have passwords on the back of them which are intriquing.......but what can I say.....wizards are just built that way...besides it's at no cost.

 

[AliEnvy]

1) A woman and her husband are trying to get pregnant, and there have been difficulties that have lasted years. In an unfortunate circumstance, the woman is raped and is then later found to be pregnant by the rapist. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

For many (who mostly have never been pregnant or faced fertility problems) it seems abortion is an obvious yes. But...what if the abortion caused permanent fertility damage? I don't know statistics but it's a definite risk.

Think about it from the husband's POV as well...turns out she CAN get pregnant, just not by him. Ouch. Even if I could cope with the child's history, could he? Does the marriage or child come first?

I would hope we'd both be strong enough to raise the baby.

2) A pregnant woman, after getting a test done, discovers that the fetus has tested positive for a chromosomal abnormality that will leave him severely mentally impaired, such that he will be incapable of taking care of himself for the rest of his life. If you were the woman, would you be able to keep the child?

I didn't have the tests to avoid this dilema. As someone here said results aren't ready until 19-20 weeks. At that point they may still call it an abortion but really it is an induced labour still birth of a fully formed baby - previously doing full kicks and flip flops that can be felt for weeks at that point.

Same answer for 3.

4) The fetus has been determined to have anencephaly,

This is probably the only one that is more clear cut for me. I'd want to mourn and move on sooner than later...but I'd still worry about the potential damage caused by an abortion.

 

[Liesje]

Re: Re: Hypothetical Abortion Situations...

This is probably the only one that is more clear cut for me. I'd want to mourn and move on sooner than later...but I'd still worry about the potential damage caused by an abortion.

I'm not disagreeing, since this are all very personal choices, but to me it seems like it would be better (not "easier"...I can't think of a good word) to mourn having actually delivered the baby, going through the process of having a baby, and then grieving, rather than finding out the condition of the baby and rather immediately cutting the whole process short. Does that make any sense? I knew someone in sort of the same situation - they found out the baby had some defect where they knew it would not live longer than a week at most. However, they decided to continue business as usual, given that there was no extra risk to the mother. The baby was born very very small, and I believe had several heart defects. It lived for a day or two, but in that time, they were able to give it a name and spend some time holding it, the family could come and see it, and the baby died peacefully in its mother's arms, instead of being cut out by a medical instrument. Some would argue maybe it's harder because then you are more attached, but I feel the way they handled it was more...I dunno...complete.

I guess it's just fresh on my mind because I just found out my cousin lost her baby, there is no heartbeat. Tomorrow she has to go in and "get flushed out" as my mom says, because they say she either miscarried, or was never pregnant in the first place (I guess sometimes your body thinks you're pregnant, but it's really an abnormality that can grow into a cancer). I can't imagine anyone choosing to go that route.

 

[anitram]

LivLuv, you can read my post for some thoughts on that.

But basically I had a friend whose youngest brother was diagnosed with anencephaly and she and her older brother were old enough to be there to "say goodbye" and they spent the rest of their lives wishing they hadn't been. So sometimes in situations like that you need to ask yourself what's best for the family. For the two of them, had their mother had an abortion early on, they wouldn't have been little kids watching essentially a corpse and felt traumatized and broken about it later.

I personally would not want to prolong the agony for everyone involved either. Particularly since it's clearcut - there is NO miracle to somebody without a brain. That person is not alive to begin with.

 

[AgainstTheWorld]

I would abort no matter what and in any situation!!!

 

[Irvine511]

i'm not a woman, nor about to get anyone pregnant, but i have always thought the birth defects issue to be a particularly touchy issue -- let's suppose that something akin to a "gay" gene is found, and let's suppose that such a gene becomes testable in the womb, would this be considered an abortable birth defect?

really, really bothers me.

but then again, i think it would be utter cruelty to not abort a child wtih the defect that Melon has highlighted.

consider:

[q]In the past, the disorder was invariably fatal, whether due to dehydration, infection, restricted respiration due to the armored plating, or other related causes. The most common cause of death is systemic infection. However, there have been improvements in care recently, and some children have survived more than the usual few hours. It is thought that with advancing medical care, within a few years, harlequin babies will be able to live for up to a decade. Because of this, and the onset of political correctness, the term harlequin baby is now preferred over harlequin fetus.

The features of sufferers are very deformed. The ears may be very poorly developed or absent entirely, as well with the nose. The eyelids are severely everted, which leaves the eyes and the area around them very susceptible to trauma. They often bleed upon birth. The lips, pulled by the dry skin, are fixed into a vestige of a clown's smile, which many find extremely disconcerting. Arms, feet, and fingers are almost always deformed in such a way that they cannot bend properly, and may be below the normal size. Polydactyly, a condition in which one has more than the usual number of toes or fingers, has also been found in these infants.

They are extremely susceptible to changes in temperature due to their plated skin, which prevents normal heat loss. This can result in hyperthermia. Their respiration is also restricted by the skin, which impedes the chest wall from expanding and drawing in enough air. This can lead to hyperventilation and respiratory failure. Harlequins are often dehydrated, as their plated skin is not well suited to keeping water in.

http://www.thedoctorslounge.net/dermatology/diseases/harlequin.htm

[/q]


it seems to be utter cruelty to bring a baby to term only to have it die within a few hours. 10 years at the most? no. i would never condemn a child to such suffering.

 

[CKONE]

As a bloke I would respect the womans choice in almost any abortion situation.

Its about life and love and if for some reason a woman feels she cannot have her baby (and it is within a legal period of termination) I would support a decision to have an abortion.

Death is shitty and to have a child you know will live only a few hours is a tough one. I would support an abortion decision however I can also see me supporting the decision for birth despite the guaranteed emotional trauma from death.

 

[melon]

Re: Re: Hypothetical Abortion Situations...

Depends on the risk of the pregnancy and how far along the fetus is. I don't know much about the science behind it, but it seems to me that once a fetus reaches a stage where these tests can be conclusive, to me personally it would be too late to abort the baby. In a case like above, I'd probably carry the baby, pray for a miracle, and if it died right away, at least I'd be able to name it, love it for a few hours, and give it a proper burial and go through the grieving process knowing I'd given the child a chance.

This is one of those moments where it really probably doesn't matter a whole lot what you choose. The child will die even if you carry it to term.

But I do wonder if it would be traumatic to see this child once born. Those born with anencephaly look like stereotypical mutants (kind of like the scene with all the Ripley clones in "Alien: Resurrection"), so I have to wonder if it would horrify a lot of mothers to see these. Just a thought.

Melon

 

[melon]

it seems to be utter cruelty to bring a baby to term only to have it die within a few hours. 10 years at the most? no. i would never condemn a child to such suffering.

Well, there are some starting to live longer--18 years or more--but it generally means bathing in Accutane and moisturizers several times a day.

But yeah...these are the best case scenarios. Human interest stories probably ignore the typical cases who die of hyperthermia and/or infection.

Melon

 

[Irvine511]

^ the "God's will" argument angers me -- if it is God's will to give a child such a horrific genetic disorder, to suffer, and then to die, then that's a pretty shitty God from whom i as a responsible parent would protect my child.

there are many fates crueler than death, this seems to be one of them.

 

[nbcrusader]

Are you saying you know God's will, or what God's will should be?

 

[nathan1977]

I think I would have a hard time taking a defenseless life. The trauma of the child not to know what's going on, until the life is literally sucked from it....I don't think I could live with knowing I'd subjected a living being to that -- especially one that I'd built such an emotional bond with.

As far as rape goes -- I've long thought that rape was one of the situations where an abortion would be justified (incest being one of the others), but there was an incredibly compelling quote from "God Sleeps in Rwanda" where a woman who had been raped by a group of soldiers later learned she was pregnant. She decided to carry the baby to term, which was her view of redeeming what would otherwise be a horrible, senseless act. That quote has made me think some more...

My aunt and uncle have a child who is dying slowly from MS. He's eight. He might live to 20. Might. In the meantime, he's full of life. If they'd decided to abort him before he was born, they might have avoided the pain of losing the child later, but really...is that the point of life?