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Old 08-01-2007, 07:25 AM   #81
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Originally posted by butter7




To be honest, it's the first time that I heard of that. How come they could think of that??!! Unless...of course...

Why are you so shocked? Why else would government want to legislate your body, but then ignore your healthcare and education after you are born?
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:27 AM   #82
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Originally posted by butter7




It's not often, really. Since early-stage abortion is really cheap, only some pills and injection got involved, one night in hospital max, then you are free to go. Usually the guy would leave just enough money when he gone.

Aren't we just love their sense of humor?
What are you talking about?
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:18 AM   #83
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


What are you talking about?
The truth. Ironically, of course.
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:20 AM   #84
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why are you so shocked? Why else would government want to legislate your body, but then ignore your healthcare and education after you are born?
the idea that abortion should be illegal is more shocking than this.
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:19 AM   #85
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Originally posted by butter7


the idea that abortion should be illegal is more shocking than this.
Well it's the irony of US conservatism.
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:25 AM   #86
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I am sort of a non-religious pro-lifer. I do not agree with abortion, but not for religious reasons.

Then again, I don't want to abolish the right of women to have abortions, because I know doing so would cause women to resort to other, more dangerous means. And sometimes, you just don't know what is going on in another person's life.

It's like the saying "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it," I don't agree with abortion, but I believe it is a right that should be available for those that do. Does that make sense?
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:29 AM   #87
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Originally posted by Sloane Peterson
I don't agree with abortion, but I believe it is a right that should be available for those that do. Does that make sense?
And this is probably the majority of pro choice people.
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:30 AM   #88
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The counter-argument for what you are saying is that people believe you are killing lives, and it shouldn't be a choice to kill a baby.

I think the key to what you are saying is that there has to be a safe option, because legal or not, it will exist. It's important to give safe means for it, which is why I think it exists today.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:55 PM   #89
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
The counter-argument for what you are saying is that people believe you are killing lives, and it shouldn't be a choice to kill a baby.

I think the key to what you are saying is that there has to be a safe option, because legal or not, it will exist. It's important to give safe means for it, which is why I think it exists today.
Exactly. Because I honestly don't believe in killing a baby, no matter if it hasn't formed into an independently living human being, BUT eliminating the right to abortion would only mean people going to shady places or going towards other means in order to abort their pregnancies.

Abortion has been happening for a LONG time, even when it was just about herbs and drinking certain mixtures to kill the child. So, moral or not, it happens, and it's much better to go to an actual clinic than to try a home-abortion that could injure oneself or deform the baby... or to try to find someone willing to perform the operation in a society where it would be a crime.

I guess for those that are like me, the answer would be not to get an abortion myself. I still hate the horror stories of abortion and I cringe to think of it, which is why I think there should be major initiatives for safe sex and steps to PREVENT the unwanted pregnancy in the first place, so abortion would not even become an issue.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:42 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sloane Peterson


... steps to PREVENT the unwanted pregnancy in the first place, so abortion would not even become an issue.
This could come in the form of more thorough DNA testing to identify the father when paternity is in doubt.

Or perhaps more legal teeth into the laws that force the men / fathers of the unborn baby to take responsibility for that baby from conception through a college education.

In other words, if you want to do more to PREVENT unwanted pregnancy, ramp up the legal structures around fathers taht help cause unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

There are other means too; but men get off too easy on this issue in my opinion.
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Old 08-03-2007, 08:45 AM   #91
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OK I did a post & run here, I hate when people do that, and there I am on page one...oops.

Anyway...

I guess my problem with the whole "How much time should she do?" thing is that it just proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance. I think they've been fed a story about how pro-lifers are nothing but religious fundies, misogynists, and generally narrow-minded fools, so they figure posing a challenging question such as "how much time should she do?" will really stump them. Problem is, pro-lifers see abortion as MURDER. So asking a pro-lifer that question is basically the same as asking a pro-choicer how much time a parent who kills their newborn baby should do.

Personally, if abortion were banned, I'd suggest the harshest penalties for the doctors performing them, not jail time for the women.

Abortion sucks, there's really no getting around that. And I think that's the thing that most pro-lifers don't "get"...I get the sense that a lot of the more vocal opponents of abortion think it's an easy choice that women make, or that pro-choicers actually LIKE abortions and hope for the number of abortions performed to increase. That's dumb. I'm pro-choice, but I'd rather see no abortions happening.
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:24 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by BWU2Buffs


This could come in the form of more thorough DNA testing to identify the father when paternity is in doubt.

Or perhaps more legal teeth into the laws that force the men / fathers of the unborn baby to take responsibility for that baby from conception through a college education.

In other words, if you want to do more to PREVENT unwanted pregnancy, ramp up the legal structures around fathers taht help cause unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

There are other means too; but men get off too easy on this issue in my opinion.
Sometimes things are more complicated than just finding who is the father.
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Old 08-03-2007, 10:17 AM   #93
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Originally posted by CTU2fan


I guess my problem with the whole "How much time should she do?" thing is that it just proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance.
You still don't get it...
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Old 08-03-2007, 10:43 AM   #94
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
I guess my problem with the whole "How much time should she do?" thing is that it just proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance. I think they've been fed a story about how pro-lifers are nothing but religious fundies, misogynists, and generally narrow-minded fools, so they figure posing a challenging question such as "how much time should she do?" will really stump them. Problem is, pro-lifers see abortion as MURDER. So asking a pro-lifer that question is basically the same as asking a pro-choicer how much time a parent who kills their newborn baby should do.

Personally, if abortion were banned, I'd suggest the harshest penalties for the doctors performing them, not jail time for the women.

Abortion sucks, there's really no getting around that. And I think that's the thing that most pro-lifers don't "get"...I get the sense that a lot of the more vocal opponents of abortion think it's an easy choice that women make, or that pro-choicers actually LIKE abortions and hope for the number of abortions performed to increase. That's dumb. I'm pro-choice, but I'd rather see no abortions happening.
They absolutely understand, and to take that stance about pro-choice people is clueless in and of itself.

I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion. I think that we need to have it legal to give a safe option, because abortions will occur, legally or not. If it's legal, at least women are safe.
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Old 08-03-2007, 11:22 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You still don't get it...
Don't get what, exactly?

Do you really think the loudest advocates on the pro-choice side of the debate really understand the thought process behind a pro-life stance? I'm not talking about the average person who is probably pro-choice (I don't have #'s handy but I'm quite certain pro-choice folks are a majority, at least in our country)...I'm talking about the activists on the front line...do you honestly think they get it, or even try to get it? I don't. Just like I don't think the hard-core pro-lifer that protests outside Planned Parenthood doesn't get the thought process behind a pro-choice stance...
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Old 08-03-2007, 11:28 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


They absolutely understand, and to take that stance about pro-choice people is clueless in and of itself.

I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion. I think that we need to have it legal to give a safe option, because abortions will occur, legally or not. If it's legal, at least women are safe.
So do I.

But don't you think both sides (not the individuals on each side, but the pro-choice & pro-life "movements" as a whole) tend to take a simplistic view of the opposite side? Hell, BVS just said I don't get it and we're both pro-choice. It's true that to take that stance about pro-choicers is dumb, but it's equally dumb to make the assumptions about pro-lifers that many on the other side make.
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Old 08-03-2007, 11:30 AM   #97
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I think in this country there's too many religious pro-lifers. The ones who are not actually have reasonable arguments. I just, again, think it's about the safe alternative, and I've never seen a good argument to counter that.
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Old 08-03-2007, 11:33 AM   #98
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Old 08-03-2007, 11:34 AM   #99
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
I think in this country there's too many religious pro-lifers. The ones who are not actually have reasonable arguments. I just, again, think it's about the safe alternative, and I've never seen a good argument to counter that.
Exactly. That's why I'm pro-choice. I didn't used to be.
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Old 08-03-2007, 03:40 PM   #100
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
Problem is, pro-lifers see abortion as MURDER.
Well then WHY is it improper to ask them what the appropriate penalties should be? I really don't understand your point here. Our criminal justice system operates on the notion of penalties (be it in the name of deterrence, punishment, exemplary action, etc). If you feel something is murder and consequently it should be criminalized, then you better sit down and consider what the penalty will be. I mean, those amendments to the criminal codes will have to be made and it's absolutely relevant that we discuss them. I don't see why you think this is a "simplistic" pro-choice view - it is legal issue and a matter of policy which most certainly cannot be ignored.
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