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Old 07-31-2007, 05:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
The question is, was it really a majority, or rather a very loud minority?
I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:40 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.
Do we support liberty against majority opinion?
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.
don't go all Hamas
on me
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Do we support liberty against majority opinion?
Depends on the circumstances. In this case, I don't.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.
No, the question is: Is it really a majority wanting to abolish abortion (i.e. more people are for abolishing it than against) ir is it just a minority (i.e. less people are for abolishing it than against) who are just voicing their opinion so loudly that they appear to be the majority.

Or: Do you have any data?

And it's apparently still this black and white debate about abortion, although in most countries the laws on abortion are very strict.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:46 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



I began the example with....



...although come to think of it, Ireland is one such state. An actual example, which exists in the real world.
Actually you started with:

Quote:
Incidentally haven't some states in the US already acceded to the wishes of the majority of the electorate in those states by effectively banning abortion?
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:48 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Actually you started with:

Still ducking the question, then.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:52 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Or: Do you have any data?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortio...reland#_note-2

"A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not. [3]"

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...y788504833.asp

Also:-

http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005...dbyProLife.htm

...survey results showing that 9 US states show a majority "pro-life"
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:54 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Still ducking the question, then.
Well there's not much of a question posed. If the state held a vote, then yeah most women would go to another state and it would eventually be overturned by the state supreme court. The majority isn't always right, that's the beauty of Democracy, it's designed to know that. That's where your argument fails.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:54 PM   #50
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Seperation of Church and State applies here.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Seperation of Church and State
means less and less

these days
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:57 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Seperation of Church and State applies here.
Applies here too, I'm happy to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_A...ion_of_Ireland

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...on-cover_x.htm



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Old 07-31-2007, 05:58 PM   #53
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Actually, I think the opposite. I think it means more. However, I think it is ignored more.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:59 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well there's not much of a question posed. If the state held a vote, then yeah most women would go to another state and it would eventually be overturned by the state supreme court. The majority isn't always right, that's the beauty of Democracy, it's designed to know that. That's where your argument fails.
So are you in favour of the overturning or neutralising of the wishes of the public by an interventionist judiciary?
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:59 PM   #55
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For abortion, for gay marriage, etc... are there any arguments other than religious arguments? Cause if not, then it shouldn't be legislature.
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:02 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortio...reland#_note-2

"A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not. [3]"

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...y788504833.asp

Also:-

http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005...dbyProLife.htm

...survey results showing that 9 US states show a majority "pro-life"
Progress.

By the way, abortion in Ireland for medical reasons is legal, as is in most countries.
There are also many greys to that matter, as found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

To Protect Woman's Life
Physical Health
Mental Health
Rape
Fetal Defects
Socio-economic factors
On Demand
And furthermore the trimester rules.
Quite interesting I think.
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:05 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
For abortion,... are there any arguments other than religious arguments? Cause if not, then it shouldn't be legislature.
Well, considering that I'm an non-believer who is opposed to legalised abortion on demand, presumably yes, there are.

One example of many websites offering secular arguments against abortion:-

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:06 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Progress.

By the way, abortion in Ireland for medical reasons is legal, as is in most countries.
Yes, and rightly so. And once again, it's in tune with public opinion - the majority here do not want an outright ban.
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:08 PM   #59
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I'm not arguing personal stances however. I don't agree with it. However, should it not be a choice for those who do not see it as wrong?
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
I'm not arguing personal stances however. I don't agree with it. However, should it not be a choice for those who do not see it as wrong?
Well, civic society can't be based on making up one's own rules.

For example, if I lived in a country were income is taxed at 30% and I feel that this tax rate is too high, it should only be 5%, would I be justified in demanding a special tax regime to suit myself? Most would say no, I would not be justified.
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