How much jail time for women who have abortions?

[deep]

But abortion has moved in the opposite direction. It's become legal. The progress got it here. It's not going to be reversed.

But, prohibition is where we have progressed to.

Everyone knows the dangers and destruction of alcohol.


We won't go backwards and repeal prohibition.

 

[BVS]

Some members of this forum, perhaps, aren't necessarily fans of democracy.

There's quite a few...

 

[phillyfan26]

But, prohibition is where we have progressed to.

Everyone knows the dangers and destruction of alcohol.


We won't go backwards and repeal prohibition.

I classify that as the exception to the rule.

 

[financeguy]

There's quite a few...

So for the sake of argument, where the legislature of a state have implemented a full or partial ban on abortion within their state, and the legislation implemented is fully consistent with the wishes of a majority based on polls of the electorate, is that wrong?

 

[deep]

I do believe most pro lifers would want a universal ban with severe punishments

especially for providers, they would be considered the al-Quedas in the battle.

The answer isn't really very complex.
professional misconduct charges, consfication by the State of income derived from performing abortions and possible jail time for repeat offenders for doctors that perform abortions.

 

[Vincent Vega]

The question is, was it really a majority, or rather a very loud minority?

 

[BVS]

So for the sake of argument, where the legislature of a state have implemented a full or partial ban on abortion within their state, and the legislation implemented is fully consistent with the wishes of a majority based on polls of the electorate, is that wrong?

Which states are we talking about? Was this a vote or some magazine poll?

 

[phillyfan26]

the legislation implemented is fully consistent with the wishes of a majority based on polls of the electorate

http://forum.interference.com/t178531.html

If it is even the majority anymore (I don't think so), it won't be for long.

 

[deep]

The progress got it here. It's not going to be reversed.

Progress has help us become a much better country

and the last two Supreme Court appointees

made a commitment to respect "stare decisis "

and based on this last court session they are not men of their word.

 

[financeguy]

Which states are we talking about? Was this a vote or some magazine poll?

I began the example with....

So for the sake of argument...

...although come to think of it, Ireland is one such state. An actual example, which exists in the real world.

 

[financeguy]

The question is, was it really a majority, or rather a very loud minority?

I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.

Do we support liberty against majority opinion?

 

[deep]

I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.

don't go all Hamas
on me

 

[financeguy]

Do we support liberty against majority opinion?

Depends on the circumstances. In this case, I don't.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I believe the question is do we like democracy only when the results suit us.

No, the question is: Is it really a majority wanting to abolish abortion (i.e. more people are for abolishing it than against) ir is it just a minority (i.e. less people are for abolishing it than against) who are just voicing their opinion so loudly that they appear to be the majority.

Or: Do you have any data?

And it's apparently still this black and white debate about abortion, although in most countries the laws on abortion are very strict.

 

[BVS]

I began the example with....



...although come to think of it, Ireland is one such state. An actual example, which exists in the real world.

Actually you started with:

Incidentally haven't some states in the US already acceded to the wishes of the majority of the electorate in those states by effectively banning abortion?

 

[financeguy]

Actually you started with:

Still ducking the question, then.

 

[financeguy]

Or: Do you have any data?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_ireland#_note-2

"A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not. [3]"

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/09/22/story788504833.asp

Also:-

http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StateAbortion0805SortedbyProLife.htm

...survey results showing that 9 US states show a majority "pro-life"

 

[BVS]

Still ducking the question, then.

Well there's not much of a question posed. If the state held a vote, then yeah most women would go to another state and it would eventually be overturned by the state supreme court. The majority isn't always right, that's the beauty of Democracy, it's designed to know that. That's where your argument fails.

 

[phillyfan26]

Seperation of Church and State applies here.

 

[deep]

Seperation of Church and State

means less and less

these days

 

[financeguy]

Seperation of Church and State applies here.

Applies here too, I'm happy to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-10-europe-religion-cover_x.htm

 

[phillyfan26]

Actually, I think the opposite. I think it means more. However, I think it is ignored more.

 

[financeguy]

Well there's not much of a question posed. If the state held a vote, then yeah most women would go to another state and it would eventually be overturned by the state supreme court. The majority isn't always right, that's the beauty of Democracy, it's designed to know that. That's where your argument fails.

So are you in favour of the overturning or neutralising of the wishes of the public by an interventionist judiciary?

 

[phillyfan26]

For abortion, for gay marriage, etc... are there any arguments other than religious arguments? Cause if not, then it shouldn't be legislature.

 

[Vincent Vega]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_ireland#_note-2

"A September 2005 Irish Examiner/Lansdowne poll found that 36% believe abortion should be legalized while 47% do not. [3]"

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/09/22/story788504833.asp

Also:-

http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StateAbortion0805SortedbyProLife.htm

...survey results showing that 9 US states show a majority "pro-life"

Progress.

By the way, abortion in Ireland for medical reasons is legal, as is in most countries.
There are also many greys to that matter, as found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

To Protect Woman's Life
Physical Health
Mental Health
Rape
Fetal Defects
Socio-economic factors
On Demand
And furthermore the trimester rules.
Quite interesting I think.

 

[financeguy]

For abortion,... are there any arguments other than religious arguments? Cause if not, then it shouldn't be legislature.

Well, considering that I'm an non-believer who is opposed to legalised abortion on demand, presumably yes, there are.

One example of many websites offering secular arguments against abortion:-

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

 

[financeguy]

Progress.

By the way, abortion in Ireland for medical reasons is legal, as is in most countries.

Yes, and rightly so. And once again, it's in tune with public opinion - the majority here do not want an outright ban.

 

[phillyfan26]

I'm not arguing personal stances however. I don't agree with it. However, should it not be a choice for those who do not see it as wrong?

 

[financeguy]

I'm not arguing personal stances however. I don't agree with it. However, should it not be a choice for those who do not see it as wrong?

Well, civic society can't be based on making up one's own rules.

For example, if I lived in a country were income is taxed at 30% and I feel that this tax rate is too high, it should only be 5%, would I be justified in demanding a special tax regime to suit myself? Most would say no, I would not be justified.