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Old 12-16-2007, 10:40 AM   #21
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


I only know that these arrests ended up saving hundreds of lives.
They were not found guilty. I agree with the defense attorney that this was largely a manufactured case (by the Gonzales DOJ).
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:45 AM   #22
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Originally posted by ntalwar


They were not found guilty. I agree with the defense attorney that this was largely a manufactured case (by the Gonzales DOJ).
Then why were they brought to trial in the first place if there was no evidence against them?
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:54 AM   #23
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


Then why were they brought to trial in the first place if there was no evidence against them?
They were brought to trial for political purposes most likely.
There was no physical evidence found.
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Old 12-16-2007, 01:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


Then why were they brought to trial in the first place if there was no evidence against them?

Because after the government had infringed on their constitutional rights, they had to prove that they did so with good reason, but unfortunately for the government this didn't work out.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


Then why were they brought to trial in the first place if there was no evidence against them?
This sounds dangerously close to:

"Well if they were arrested then they must be guilty."
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Old 12-16-2007, 09:36 PM   #26
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Originally posted by AchtungBono
I only know that these arrests ended up saving hundreds of lives. If the criminal's rights were violated.....so be it.
What rights do they have anyway if they wanted to destroy the very country that protects them?
Are you ... are you serious?

Read these words: Innocent until proven guilty.

Your argument there literally is: the ends justify the means. Problem: That's not how the country works. Why? Because (drum roll, please) ... OFTEN TIMES THE ARRESTS ARE WRONG.

I can't believe that you need to be told this.
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Old 12-16-2007, 09:48 PM   #27
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I've come to understand that AchtungBono doesn't hold the rule of law, civil rights, or, you know, the core principles a country was founded on, in high regard.
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Old 12-16-2007, 09:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by ntalwar
They were brought to trial for political purposes most likely.
There was no physical evidence found.
*Nods* Sadly, this happens sometimes. Not everyone who's arrested or in jail or whatever is guilty. And yet, for some bizarre reason, they're still there.

AchtungBono, if you found yourself in these guys' shoes, wouldn't you want to do everything in your power to get a fair and just trial?

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Old 12-16-2007, 10:59 PM   #29
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That's the thing though. Those who have little sympathy for the wrongfully accused are almost always of the opinion that they themselves are law abiding citizens so these things would never happen to them.

The inability to put yourself in another's shoes has never been a boon to civilized society.
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:11 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Diemen
That's the thing though. Those who have little sympathy for the wrongfully accused are almost always of the opinion that they themselves are law abiding citizens so these things would never happen to them.
You're right-I thought of that as I was typing my post. Never hurts to ask, though, just to see what the answer might be. Sometimes you need to do that to remind people to look at it from another perspective.

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The inability to put yourself in another's shoes has never been a boon to civilized society.
Too true .

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Old 12-17-2007, 03:51 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Diemen
I've come to understand that AchtungBono doesn't hold the rule of law, civil rights, or, you know, the core principles a country was founded on, in high regard.
I'm sorry I give that impression... because nothing could be further from the truth.

I do believe in the law and civil rights....for the INNOCENT. I don't believe in granting any rights to criminals - this doesn't contradict anything or show that I don't believe in law....quite the opposite - it is precisely BECAUSE I believe in the law and people's rights that I am outraged when I see criminals getting away with crimes because of loopholes in the law and/or hide behind constitutional rights.
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Old 12-17-2007, 03:57 AM   #32
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


Are you ... are you serious?

Read these words: Innocent until proven guilty.

Your argument there literally is: the ends justify the means. Problem: That's not how the country works. Why? Because (drum roll, please) ... OFTEN TIMES THE ARRESTS ARE WRONG.

I can't believe that you need to be told this.
"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work. What happens in a case where a robber is in a bank, holding a hostage, the police are surrounding him...there are dozens of witnesses, he comes out and shoots the hostage in broad daylight and in front of everyone.....and yet he's referred to as a SUSPECT and ALLEGED gunman......what???? Do you really need a trial to prove he's guilty??

Besides, I always understood that you can't charge anyone with a crime, much less put them on trial, unless there is solid evidence against them.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:16 AM   #33
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work.
Pathetic.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:14 AM   #34
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Pathetic.
Why pathetic? I just gave a perfectly good example in the post above.....

Why was that pathetic?
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work. What happens in a case where a robber is in a bank, holding a hostage, the police are surrounding him...there are dozens of witnesses, he comes out and shoots the hostage in broad daylight and in front of everyone.....and yet he's referred to as a SUSPECT and ALLEGED gunman......what???? Do you really need a trial to prove he's guilty??

Besides, I always understood that you can't charge anyone with a crime, much less put them on trial, unless there is solid evidence against them.
1) The scenario you listed with "dozens of witnesses" is EXTREMELY rare.

2) Yes, you do need a trial.

3) For the last part ... not always. Sometimes there's corruption.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:35 AM   #36
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Originally posted by AchtungBono
I do believe in the law and civil rights....for the INNOCENT. I don't believe in granting any rights to criminals - this doesn't contradict anything or show that I don't believe in law....quite the opposite - it is precisely BECAUSE I believe in the law and people's rights that I am outraged when I see criminals getting away with crimes because of loopholes in the law and/or hide behind constitutional rights.
The problem is that you're trying to take away civil rights from people who haven't been found guilty.
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:49 AM   #37
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Originally posted by AchtungBono
Besides, I always understood that you can't charge anyone with a crime, much less put them on trial, unless there is solid evidence against them.
And here is where your argument completely falls apart, because you are completely wrong. There have been lots and lots (and lots) of people who have been wrongly accused and convicted of crimes, and who have had to serve lengthy jail/prison terms, only to be freed later because further investigation uncovered evidence before their innocence was proven. What would you say to a man who just spent 17 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit? Oops, sorry you had to spend the last 17 years in a cement box away from your family and children, but uh... we thought you were guilty

Do a google search for "wrongly convicted" and read up a little bit before you say such incredibly naive (and dangerous) things.
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:51 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Diemen
Do a google search for "wrongly convicted" and read up a little bit before you say such incredibly naive (and dangerous) things.
Don't bother AchtungBono with the facts. I think AB's allergic to them.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:18 AM   #39
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Don't bother AchtungBono with the facts. I think AB's allergic to them.
Axver, there's really no need for sarcasm.....my intentions are honorable and I mean no harm.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:29 AM   #40
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always work.
It's only Monday and I think we may have found the worst post of the week already.

I find it sad that you hate these principals so much.
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