Hitchens is not great! Sharpton is ?

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BonoVoxSupastar said:

Very few.


I see no difference. The majority of Christian denominations are doing the same exact thing right now.

I would do a little bit of research. There are many Christians like this. They're not as vocal as the Fred Phelps-stuff, but they're out there showing God's love to everyone, gay or straight.
 
coemgen said:


I would do a little bit of research. There are many Christians like this. They're not as vocal as the Fred Phelps-stuff, but they're out there showing God's love to everyone, gay or straight.

Yes, I think there are a lot of tolerant Christians. But actual denominations haven't caught up to the individuals.
 
What about Methodists, Episcopal and some of the nondenominational churches? I know churches of these denominations, and others, in my community that are very open to having homosexuals in their church and loving them openly.
 
coemgen said:
What about Methodists, Episcopal and some of the nondenominational churches? I know churches of these denominations, and others, in my community that are very open to having homosexuals in their church and loving them openly.

I grew up Methodist, and they are still firing youth directors, bishops, and staff members that are open. More liberal Episcopal dioceses are pretty tolerant from what I know, but the denomination as a whole, not so much.

Non-denom churches are for the most part usually more tolerant and have open arms. Non-denom churches are for the most part the only type of church I'll set foot into these days.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

Non-denom churches are for the most part usually more tolerant and have open arms. Non-denom churches are for the most part the only type of church I'll set foot into these days.

That's the type of church I attend. I love it.

My point is there are churches tolerant toward homosexuals and even levels of tolerance within denominations regarding homosexuality. Like we heard from the PBS doc on Mormonism, which isn't recognizes as Christian by most mainline Christians, being gay and being in the church is like being in hell, I think the guy said.
And that's the issue of homosexuality. While there may've been churches/Christians who discriminated against African Americans, there were many white churches/Christians fighting for their rights. It wasn't the entire faith getting a "revelation" telling them to basically discriminate.
 
coemgen said:
There are many Christians who may disagree with it from their perspective, but they do it respectfully and don't stand for discrimination.

This is the big lie.

Anyone that says

"Hate the sin
but love the sinner"

Is a hater
and a bigot.
 
Not necessarily. If homosexuality is in fact how people are born, then I can see where you're coming from. However, keep in mind, those who consider homsexuality a sin don't see it this way.

Other than that issue, it does hold true. If someone lies, cheats, steals whatever, you can hate the sin and love the sinner. I do it all the time and people do it to me, too.
 
Again, not necessarily. It's an opinion or a belief and that doesn't mean all who hold that opinion or belief discriminate. Essential Christian doctorine tells us we're all sinners.
 
coemgen said:
Again, not necessarily. It's an opinion or a belief and that doesn't mean all who hold that opinion or belief discriminate.
Essential Christian doctorine tells us we're all sinners.

Yes but all other sins have a common sense or social science reason to back it up, except for this one.
 
coemgen said:

Other than that issue, it does hold true. If someone lies, cheats, steals whatever, you can hate the sin and love the sinner. I do it all the time and people do it to me, too.

I think you know we were talking about homosexuality.


And when people say:

They hate the homosexual sin
but love the homosexual sinner


it makes as much sense as saying

Hate Jewish behavior
but love Jews
 
coemgen said:
Essential Christian doctorine tells us we're all sinners.

I reject this

the whole sin concept

I do believe in right and wrong behavior
decency and so forth

sin is a weapon used by religious groups

I believe it is just a way of shaming and controlling people

you calling me a sinner,
is as legitimate as a Muslim calling you an infidel
 
If someone lies, cheats, steals whatever, you can hate the sin and love the sinner. I do it all the time and people do it to me, too.

If someone steals, call law enforcement.

If someone lies or cheats go tell your mommy or teacher
and stop playing with them.

Why allow yourself to be caught up in hating and name calling (sinner) ?
 
coemgen said:
It's an opinion or a belief

It's a wrong opinion and a wrong belief.

Why should somebody's opinion that homosexuality is not a trait one is born in be a valid opinion but somebody's opinion that blacks are an inferior and less intelligent race to be bigoted? You could bring up "scientific" data to back you up in both instances and you'd be wrong both times.

Just because somebody believes that the sky is green and that E.T. will be coming home for dinner doesn't make it so.
 
Wow. It's a group conversation now. :wink:

First off, let me say that I've been speaking from a general perspective that many Christians have on homosexuality. Like I've said before, I'm on the fence with the issue and can see both sides. I'm still forming my own personal belief on the issue.

That said, from the general perspective I was using to explain where some Christians come from, it's getting into the apples to oranges debate. I understand how you guys see it, but they don't see it as something homosexuals are born with, so therefore it is a sin to them. You can't say they're hateful or discriminatory when their opinion, no matter how wrong or right it is, differs from yours as far as why people are homosexual. If they believed they were born that way AND continued to call it a sin and/or were to discriminate, then yeah, there's a bigger issue to deal with. However, if they simply see it as a sinful lifestyle, then at best (or worst) they're ignorant. I don't think that equates to hate, especially if they're ultimately looking for that person to find salvation from their sins through Christ, like all of us need. Then they're still just hoping for the best for that person. Does that make sense?
I think that's some of why there's so much tension and a lack of meaningful dialogue between the two sides is because both sides are failing to understand that the other side has a different definition of homosexuality and it's a view they hold with some conviction. Then there's name calling comes from both sides.
Now, if they're discriminating regardless of what they believe, that's wrong. If they're using the term sin when they believe that's what it is though, I don't see it as hate. It may be wrong, but ultimately they want that person, I would hope, to find salvation through Christ for their sins and see that it, as well as every other sin, is detrimental to their lives. Again, whether it is sin or not is the truth we all need to arrive at through open minds, prayer and positive discussion.
 
It doesn't matter if they are born gay or not, sexual activity between consenting adults does not justify government discrimination; not discriminating them from being members of a particular church thats fine, but not unequal rights under law.

I am going to say that I am quite pro-sin; blasphemy, sex before marroage, heathenism - I don't see how being hated by religious minded bigots reflects badly on you.
 
deep said:


I reject this

the whole sin concept

I do believe in right and wrong behavior
decency and so forth

sin is a weapon used by religious groups

I believe it is just a way of shaming and controlling people

you calling me a sinner,
is as legitimate as a Muslim calling you an infidel

If you reject that, that's your decision. However, for the millions of Christians around the world, including myself, it's a central component to our view of existence, eternity and our relationship with God.

As far as it being a "weapon used by religious groups" and a "way of shaming and controlling people," it hasn't been that way for me. In my life, understanding that God is holy, pure and equal to love itself and I am too often the opposite of those things has been the most freeing thing ever. Knowing I can be forgiven for any hate, rage, lust, bitterness, anger, judgement, jealousy, or whatever else that comes into my heart is the deepest form of liberation for me.

And, that said, I can honestly say there's been times here in FYM I've allowed some of these states of mind and heart to take over as I discuss/debate with you and others here. While I may stand by my perspectives and convictions, I know I may not always get it out in the right way or with the right heart. Therefore, I'm sincerely sorry and I ask for your forgiveness.
 
deep said:

you calling me a sinner,
is as legitimate as a Muslim calling you an infidel
But a Muslim is legitimate in calling you an infidel, well maybe not if your technically a person of the book but me definitely so. It isn't that they are incorrect it's just that the worldview is wrong and harmful.
 
I'm kinda out on the whole Gay question, if it's genetic or not.

I've known a few gay LDS ppl, some have even died from HIV and despite that many have said they still love the Church, but don't agree with the policy.


I think a kind and loving Creator will sort things out in the next life.

One thing I so love about my Faith is that Mormons are not a "hell fire and brimstone" people.

We're taught to love, esp love the less fortunate, we're even encouraged to take a day off and volunteer at an AIDS or Cancer clinic to learn empathy and compassion towards our fellowman.

That my friends is what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about in a nutshell.


dbs
 
BEAL said:


While some will look towards a higher power that gives us this control, I just think from a survival level, it doesn't make any sense. If any one species were to start killing it's own, how would this species survive?

You would think. . .and yet, that's exactly what our own species seems to be doing to itself much of the time.

To explain that seemingly counterintuitive characteristic of human beings, some people of faith use the "s" word.
 
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