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Old 07-14-2007, 05:20 PM   #21
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Originally posted by AEON


There is nothing about the teachings of Jesus or anything about His life at all that would justify this.


i totally agree.

there was nothing about the teachings of Jesus that justified the crusades or shooting abortion doctors.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:26 PM   #22
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Originally posted by anitram
If the society moved more to the left (recognizing gay marriage, stacking SCOTUS, etc), I wouldn't AT ALL be surprised to see domestic terrorism from these groups in the name of Jesus. In fact, I think given the political climate, it's probably not that far off...


we recently had a senator from Texas who said the following:

[q]"I don't know if there is a cause-and-effect connection, but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country. . . . And I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters, on some occasions, where judges are making political decisions yet are unaccountable to the public, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in, engage in violence. Certainly without any justification, but a concern that I have."
[/q]



or a former Congressman from Texas who said this in response to Terri Schiavo:

[q]"The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior." [/q]



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Apr4.html
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:41 PM   #23
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I can see the comparison between abortion clinic bombers and muslim extremists. But what of size and scope?

From Rono's article: "Since 1977, casualties from this war include seven murders, 17 attempted murders, three kidnappings, 152 assaults, 305 completed or attempted bombings and arsons, 375 invasions, 482 stalking incidents, 380 death threats, 618 bomb threats, 100 acid attacks, and 1,254 acts of vandalism, according to the National Abortion Federation."

Since 1977, seven murders? How does this compare to one week in Iraq between the Sunni and Shia? Or a weekend of attempted bombings in London and Glasgow? Or a single day's plane flights whose destination is the Manhattan financial district?

I take issue with the moral equivalency drawn between modern Christian zealots and Islamic zealots. Certainly there are much different levels of zealotry.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:25 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Bluer White

I take issue with the moral equivalency drawn between modern Christian zealots and Islamic zealots. Certainly there are much different levels of zealotry.


there is an equivalency to be drawn, i think, between someone who shoots a doctor or bombs a clinic and someone who blows himself up attempting to liberate himself from perceived "occupiers."

you are correct that the scope isn't comparable. and for that, we have our separation of church and state to thank, as well as a strong economy, democracy, etc. American Christians are the most powerful, well-protected, catered-to group of believers in the history of the world (and yet, some still feel beseiged in December).

if Christianity were subject to the same extreme social conditions that Islam currently is, we'd see a much more violent face of Jesus.

that's all that's trying to be said, i think.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:34 PM   #25
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Wow! I had no idea they opened with a prayer like that. Why can't we fucking co-exist? If we must have religion, just practice yours and let other practice theirs! How hard is it to do that?
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


There is nothing about the teachings of Jesus or anything about His life at all that would justify this.
Yet it's happened in the past. Nothing about his teachings or his life point towards a lot of the things "Christians" do in their life, but they find a wait to twist it to fit their hatreds anyway.
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Old 07-16-2007, 08:46 AM   #27
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[q]Murder suspect says he was doing God's work

By PAIGE HEWITT
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

A Cypress man charged in the death of a Southwest Airlines flight attendant said Saturday that he was doing God's work when he went to a Montrose-area bar last month, hunting for a gay man to kill.

"I believe I'm Elijah, called by God to be a prophet," said 26-year-old Terry Mark Mangum, charged with murder June 11. " ... I believe with all my heart that I was doing the right thing."

Interviewed in the Brazoria County Jail Saturday morning, Mangum said he feels no remorse for killing 46-year-old Kenneth Cummings Jr., whom relatives described as a "loving" son who never forgot a holiday and a devoted uncle who had set up college funds for his niece and nephew. He worked at Southwest for 24 years.

Mangum, who described himself as "definitely not a homosexual," said God called on him to "carry out a code of retribution" by killing a gay man because "sexual perversion" is the "worst sin."

Mangum believed Cummings to be gay.

"I planned on sending him to hell," he said.

Cummings disappeared June 4. His charred remains were found June 16, buried on a 50-acre ranch near San Antonio owned by Mangum's 90-year-old grandfather.

Brazoria County District Attorney Jeri Yenne would not comment on the case, citing a gag order issued by a judge Saturday afternoon.

The Chronicle was unable to reach Mangum's attorney, Perry Stevens.

Mangum — who claimed he has studied the Bible for "thousands and thousands and thousands of hours" — said God first commanded him to kill during a "visitation," or dream, while he was in prison in 2001. He said his victim must be a man because men "carry the harvest of the sinner."

After six months' planning, Mangum said, he went to E.J.'s, a Montrose-area club, where he met Cummings. After they drank a couple of beers, he said, the two went to Cummings' home in Pearland.

Mangum said he stabbed Cummings with a "6-inch blade."

"It's not that I'm a bad dude," he said, expressing concern that people might view him as "strange." Pausing briefly, he said, "I love God."[/q]



Jesus Akbar?
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




i totally agree.

there was nothing about the teachings of Jesus that justified the crusades or shooting abortion doctors.
Well, some would argue that the crusades were a response to the Muslim invasions of Europe over the centuries prior to its beginning. That being said, you are correct - Jesus would never agree with Christians going off simply to kill non-believers and abortion doctors.

BTW - even the most Conservative Christians I know were against those bombings.
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:42 AM   #29
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all i am trying to say is that there is nothing inherently moral about being a Christian (or being an American).

without eternal vigilence, we all have the same potential for totalitarianism, extremism, and violence.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


Jesus Akbar?
Akbar?

Just a follower of the Bible.

Doesn't seem near as bad as God telling a follower to butcher a child, the follower's own son.

And we are conditioned to revere Abraham and reviled this follower of God?
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Akbar?

Just a follower of the Bible.

Doesn't seem near as bad as God telling a follower to butcher a child, the follower's own son.

And we are conditioned to revere Abraham and reviled this follower of God?


genocide via drowning only happens to bad people. who deserve it.
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:44 PM   #32
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Guest chaplain Rajan Zed's prayer:


Let us pray. We meditate on the transcendental Glory of the Deity Supreme, who is inside the heart of the Earth, inside the life of the sky, and inside the soul of the Heaven. May He stimulate and illuminate our minds. [Rig Veda 3.10.62]

Lead us from the unreal to the real, from darkness to light, and from death to immortality. [Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.3.28] May we be protected together. May we be nourished together. May we work together with great vigor. May our study be enlightening. May no obstacle arise between us. [Taittiriya Upanishad 2.2.2]

May the Senators strive constantly to serve the welfare of the world, performing their duties with the welfare of others always in mind, because by devotion to selfless work one attains the supreme goal of life. May they work carefully and wisely, guided by compassion and without thought for themselves. [Bhagavad Gita 3.19, minus "the Senators" of course]

United your resolve, united your hearts, may your spirits be as one, that you may long dwell in unity and concord. [Rig Veda 10.191.1]

Peace, peace, peace be unto all. ['Om Shanti', a standard prayer ending] Lord, we ask You to comfort the family of former First Lady, Lady Bird Johnson. Amen.


Disgusting sentiments, aren't they?

That said, I think it's a bit of a stretch to find incipient aspirations to martyrdom in the "protest" of these two idiots and their daughter.
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:06 PM   #33
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Originally posted by yolland
That said, I think it's a bit of a stretch to find incipient aspirations to martyrdom in the "protest" of these two idiots and their daughter.


i'm sure they'd all give their lives for the one true God and his son Jesus Christ.
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:06 PM   #34
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I must admit - these protesters are a bit embarrassing.
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




genocide via drowning only happens to bad people. who deserve it.
II guess you are referring to the Flood story with Noah


I think that fewer and fewer believers buy the whole earth flood story.
That all living humans and animals are direct descendants from the Ark passengers.

I do think believers accept the Abram/ Abraham story.
That Abraham was compliant and willing to slaughter his son.

I was told this story at a very young age in Sunday School. And to even question it, would have been heresy.

I now think Abraham failed the test.
He should have said "No' to God.

"I will not slaughter an innocent.
Do with me what you will."
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Guest chaplain Rajan Zed's prayer:


Let us pray. We meditate on the transcendental Glory of the Deity Supreme, who is inside the heart of the Earth, inside the life of the sky, and inside the soul of the Heaven. May He stimulate and illuminate our minds. [Rig Veda 3.10.62]


Disgusting sentiments, aren't they?

Yoland,

I have many evangelical Christian friends that would consider that a pagan religion, a false religion.

They would not be happy that this was being presented at their taxpayer expense.
Those values and beliefs are not what the founding fathers of America had in mind.
What next a Wiccan Priest?
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Old 07-16-2007, 06:31 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Yoland,

I have many evangelical Christian friends that would consider that a pagan religion, a false religion.

They would not be happy that this was being presented at their taxpayer expense.
Those values and beliefs are not what the founding fathers of America had in mind.
What next a Wiccan Priest?
Deep,

As you know, I am an “evangelical,” but I need to understand that America does have a pretty wide spectrum of religions. Our military Chaplains are trained to keep prayers as generic as possible, much like the one cited here. I think the civilian Chaplains are trained in the same manner.

I feel that we must be flexible unless ALL prayer will be prohibited. I would prefer prayers like this occasionally be given because I believe there is value in continuing with opening prayers.
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Old 07-16-2007, 06:50 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Deep,

As you know, I am an “evangelical,” but I need to understand that America does have a pretty wide spectrum of religions. Our military Chaplains are trained to keep prayers as generic as possible, much like the one cited here. I think the civilian Chaplains are trained in the same manner.

I feel that we must be flexible unless ALL prayer will be prohibited. I would prefer prayers like this occasionally be given because I believe there is value in continuing with opening prayers.
I hear what you are saying.

And it is good to hear that your Chaplain is keeping it generic.

Are you aware of the serious problems that have happened recently with Chaplains and Officers going full-tilt evangelical?

I attend my local City Council meetings and they open with a prayer and the pledge. A couple of years back they passed a policy to go more generic, in lieu of the Jesus as God theme.

As the world gets smaller with the Internet and world trade,
some will push for more tolerance and understanding and some others will think that foreign cultures and beliefs are diluting traditional American values.

How would you feel if this prayer was offered in your child's public elementary school?
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Old 07-16-2007, 06:56 PM   #39
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Originally posted by deep


I hear what you are saying.

And it is good to hear that your Chaplain is keeping it generic.

Are you aware of the serious problems that have happened recently with Chaplains and Officers going full-tilt evangelical?

I attend my local City Council meetings and they open with a prayer and the pledge. A couple of years back they passed a policy to go more generic, in lieu of the Jesus as God theme.

As the world gets smaller with the Internet and world trade,
some will push for more tolerance and understanding and some others will think that foreign cultures and beliefs are diluting traditional American values.

How would you feel if this prayer was offered in your child's public elementary school?
I would prefer that trained Chaplains offer prayers at public ceremonies. These men are women are trained to be generic and not combative.

I also understand that the military Chaplains you decribed were punished. I am transitioning from the Infantry to the Chaplain Corps - and one of things I am looking forward to is working with Rabbis, Priests, and other Protestant ministers from various denominations.

The main purpose of a Chaplain is to offer comfort, not proselytize or get political.
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:02 PM   #40
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I am starting to think that Americans beat themselves up too much over separation of Church and State.

Can we imagine the reaction if someone tried to convert Muslims to Christianity in even one of the more 'liberal' Muslim states?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_...ts_in_Malaysia
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