have they gone too far?

[popkidu2]

For those of you in the US who have seen the most recent Victoria Secret ads on tv...do you think they've gone too far?

I'm a pretty liberal guy....I like my women, but those ads look like soft porn movies you see on skinemax or showtime late night. It blows me away that they actually made these ads, and that companies are willing to sell ad time to air them. I don't have a problem with scantily clad women prancing around for a victoria secret ad, but I think the context of the ad makes it too cheap. They should be a bit more classy imo.



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I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think they've gone too far. It's bad for women (who are "objectified"), teenage girls (who feel they must look like that, or they are "ugly") and for men (who try to keep away from temptation to lust, because these commercials come on without warning)

 

[missmacphisto]

Havent seen 'em...Wouldnt star in anything like that though, despite my reputation.

I dont understand why women would want to do stuff like that, unless you truly are desperate for money.
Maybe they think that there are tons of inteligent,kind, and great looking men that are out there watching them, but they forget about the idiots, the criminals, the losers,a nd the hideous types that are out there too.
Its just pointless. But then, i hate most commercials these days,lol. Too stupid for my tastes.

 

[Peaseblossom]

Lighten up, guys. They're just commercials, and from what I've heard from my guy friends, they've done exactly what they're supposed to- gotten tons of men to want to by Vicky's merchandise for the holidays. Sure they're a little risque', but sex sells, and until our culture is driven by something else, commercials like these will continue to be made.

Commence attacking me if you wish.

 

[Rono]

Hmm, sounds like a MTV program.

 

[WildHonee]

OMG I saw what I think was the newest one Monday while I was watching "Boston Public"

I was TRAUMATIZED. It was like "my BROTHERS will see this. My FATHER will see this...random MEN on the street will see this!" Now I'm only 17 but the whole idea of it all is REALLY discomforting. Is that a word?

------------------
~*Mona*~
"It's not what you're dreaming
But what you're gonna do.
It's not where you're born.
It's where you belong.
It's not how weak
But what will make you strong."

 

[DoctorGonzo]

Damn, I don't watch that much TV, but hell! I need to start doing it more to catch this mythical ad!

 

[foray]

What happens in the ad?

foray

 

[Achtung_Bebe]

Yeah I saw one of the newest commercials and thought they had, ummm, gotten closer to the boundary. It's just non-stop flashes of cleavage. Yeah sex sells and everything but I think portraying their product in this way does more bad than good. Psychologically speaking... as in what image people feel they have to uphold etc.

 

[U2Bama]

If a Baptist minister were on here complaining about the ads, people would be complaining about "censorship" and calling him a nazi.

[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 11-02-2001).]

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

it's about time they start desensatising people to sex. better than being already desensetised to violence.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Cannibalistic Artist, are you serious?
It's about time "they" start desensitizing people to sex?? Well I would disagree with the idea that we need to be "desensitized" to sex, but we needn't argue about that, because that is not what this ad is doing. I don't know about you, but the last time I had sex, it didn't look like that. These ads are about illusion, these women look "even better than the real thing", it's an impossible ideal that puts images into people's heads, both men and women, that are entirely unrealistic. I think that's harmful. I'm not saying everything unrealistic is harmful, but things like this have a tendency to make men say "I wish my wife looked like that" and women say "I need to try and look like that" and that seems to result in unhealthy things very often.

 

[MysteryGirl]

HEY! I have an idea. Show those ads to osama bin laden and his brainwashed drones. That'll put an end to them!

------------------
"You're dangerous...'cause you're honest"

 

[Diemen]

Originally posted by WildHonee:
OMG I saw what I think was the newest one Monday while I was watching "Boston Public"

I was TRAUMATIZED. It was like "my BROTHERS will see this. My FATHER will see this...random MEN on the street will see this!" Now I'm only 17 but the whole idea of it all is REALLY discomforting. Is that a word?

You can't be serious. Traumatized??

So what about those Herbal Essences commercials? Those actually simulate orgasms, so that must make you scream in anguish.

Here's a little tip for you. Your brothers, your father, and random men on the street will have/have had so-called "impure" thoughts regardless of what commercials are on TV.

Is that what things are coming to? That some flaunting of sexuality actually traumatizes people? Why is any degree of obvious sexuality regarded as dirty in this culture? It's little wonder teenagers with raging hormones are so confused, we tell them that feeling sexy and seductive is wrong and sinful.

Come on now, people, I think we're overreacting just a bit. What does Victoria's Secret sell? Lingerie, undergarments, perfumes, lotions, etc - things that are supposed to make a woman feel sexy. And lets face it, things that are intended to get a reaction out of the opposite sex, as well. So it's not your tidy, safe little company that isn't going to offend people who have become so blinded by uber-morality and religious dogma that they think any sexuality is inherently wrong and dirty. You shouldn't be ashamed to feel sexy, and that's the message Victoria's Secret has been pushing for quite some time. Now maybe they push the envelope a little bit, but is that so bad? It's a little suggestive, yes, but then again, so are their products. Why make something that goes under clothing look so good, anyway? Oh yes, because it's supposed to make you feel sexy.

The idea of sex and sexuality has been vilified long enough. I think it's time for some people to move past the Puritan view that sex and sexuality is inherently dirty and shouldn't be fun or enjoyable. Maybe if we didn't make such a big deal out of it, people wouldn't think so much of something as silly as a suggestive TV commercial.

And as far as the commercials being bad for men who are trying to resist temptation, if you can't watch that commercial without falling into a fit of lust, then I really think you've got more things to worry about than what's on TV.

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
Cannibalistic Artist, are you serious?
It's about time "they" start desensitizing people to sex?? Well I would disagree with the idea that we need to be "desensitized" to sex, but we needn't argue about that, because that is not what this ad is doing. I don't know about you, but the last time I had sex, it didn't look like that. These ads are about illusion, these women look "even better than the real thing", it's an impossible ideal that puts images into people's heads, both men and women, that are entirely unrealistic. I think that's harmful. I'm not saying everything unrealistic is harmful, but things like this have a tendency to make men say "I wish my wife looked like that" and women say "I need to try and look like that" and that seems to result in unhealthy things very often.

well i agree with you on your point about portraying the women as being better than the real thing, and unrealistic, but i would have to stick to my belief with the desensetizing to sex bit, even though i was exaggerating. have you seen what european ads are like? people there seem to have no problem with full frontal nudity on public television, their entire view of sex is completely different, but they do object to senseless violence. people here in the US do the exact opposite, and i don't know about you, but i like to make love not war

 

[80sU2isBest]

Diemen, my views on this are based mainly on my Christian beliefs, that is true. But you have failed to answer my other two points:

1)These commercials "objectify" women, treating women as nothing but sexual objects
2)Teenaged girls see the images that the media trys to sell as "the perfect woman", and hate themselves if they don't look like that themselves. It's ridiculous

As far as you ridiculing the "puritanical" beliefs of myself and others regarding sexuality...well, you've got to argue with God on that one. I just believe what He says. And believe me, God does not like this kind of stuff. And yes, I do know what God says about this - it's in His word. God wants his people to live pure lives, and that's not helped by having some half-dressed woman dancing around on TV. And you dismiss my idea of men and temptation in your condescending tone, but if you saw it from my point of view, you'd see that it's not some little thing. What about the man who is trying to break free from a pornography habit? He sees one of those commercials and the temptation hits again. What about the man whose marriage is on the rocks and he and his wife aren't having normal sexual relations? he sees one of those commercials and that increases his temptation to go find it someplace else. There are countless other scenarios, I'm sure. Face reality. The way our society is headed - free sex, no shame, no MORALS, is not good for us at all. Look where we were as a nation pre-sexual revolution as compared to post-sexual revolution and you'll see what I'm talking about. And I'm damn tired of people who actually still believe in moral values being ridiculed for their beliefs. I've decided that life is too short, and this nation has gotten too far away from what God intended to just sit by and say nothing.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 11-06-2001).]

 

[Diemen]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Diemen, my views on this are based mainly on my Christian beliefs, that is true. But you have failed to answer my other two points:

1)These commercials "objectify" women, treating women as nothing but sexual objects
2)Teenaged girls see the images that the media trys to sell as "the perfect woman", and hate themselves if they don't look like that themselves. It's ridiculous

As far as you ridiculing the "puritanical" beliefs of myself and others regarding sexuality...well, you've got to argue with God on that one. I just believe what He says. And believe me, God does not like this kind of stuff. And yes, I do know what God says about this - it's in His word. God wants his people to live pure lives, and that's not helped by having some half-dressed woman dancing around on TV. And you dismiss my idea of men and temptation in your condescending tone, but if you saw it from my point of view, you'd see that it's not some little thing. What about the man who is trying to break free from a pornography habit? He sees one of those commercials and the temptation hits again. What about the man whose marriage is on the rocks and he and his wife aren't having normal sexual relations? he sees one of those commercials and that increases his temptation to go find it someplace else. There are countless other scenarios, I'm sure. Face reality. The way our society is headed - free sex, no shame, no MORALS, is not good for us at all. Look where we were as a nation pre-sexual revolution as compared to post-sexual revolution and you'll see what I'm talking about. And I'm damn tired of people who actually still believe in moral values being ridiculed for their beliefs. I've decided that life is too short, and this nation has gotten too far away from what God intended to just sit by and say nothing.

First of all, I admit to playing the devil's advocate a bit on this topic. I don't entirely agree with the marketing tactics in these commercials, but I also don't view it as THAT terrible of a thing.

Wait a minute, I never said I believed in free sex, no shame, no morals. And these commercials don't promote that. I still believe in moral values and for you to suggest that I'm morally corrupt just because I don't become squeamish at the sight of a lingerie ad is a little iffy. What about the monogamous, married couples that use Victoria's Secret? Is it wrong for them to act sexy without shame? But I guess for people who are so uncomfortable with human sexuality that they can't stand a commercial that shows some skin, then I could see how one might assume that Victoria's Secret is promoting "Free sex, no shame, no morals."

I tend to agree with Cannibalistic artist. There are commercials in Europe that show full-frontal nudity, and people don't think twice about them, because they weren't brought up to fear sexuality and so it doesn't pose a problem. I don't see it as a morality issue, I see it as an issue of organized religion trying to erase and deny human instincts (yikes, did I just say that?).

In regards to these commercials objectifying women, yes, they are guilty of that, but it's funny how I never see anybody complaining of commercials where guys are objectified. You act as if these women have no control over what they're doing and they're being victimized in the commercial. These women know what the commercials look like - they know what they're getting into. And maybe, just maybe, they feel a little empowered to know that they can cause so much commotion just by showing some skin.

And you assume that all teenage girls are incredibly insecure and feel the need to try and be like everything they see on TV. I really doubt the majority of teenage girls who see these commercials are going to hate themselves if they don't look like that. These commercials aren't that powerful. Some teenagers might, but I think that's more a reflection on parental issues today.

I could get into a much bigger argument on the God side of this (His word was written 2 millenia ago and was directed towards a much simpler culture - I don't think everything written in the Bible can be applied to modern day, but anyway), but I know that it will cause much dissention, bitterness, anger and bickering.

In spite of what I've said, I do respect your beliefs, 80s, I just think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Johnny Swallow]

All I have to say is that the ads are effective...wow.

 

[Peaseblossom]

Let me preface this by saying I can respect all beliefs expressed in this thread. I just happen to feel very passionate about our freedoms in this country. Free press is one of those.

1. Dittos to everything Diemen said. Man, he's perfect. *sigh*

2.

Originally posted by Johnny Swallow:
All I have to say is that the ads are effective...wow.

As someone who works in marketing, it looks like the company has accomplished their goals.

3. As for girls "hating themselves," In my case, Victoria's Secret has actually helped with that. I don't have the perfect body, far from it...However, slipping into something silky and pretty, and a dash of vanilla laced perfume makes me feel sexy, something that doesn't happen very often. Oh, perhaps I've said too much. I wouldn't want to send anyone into fits of lust.

[This message has been edited by Peaseblossom (edited 11-06-2001).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Peaseblossom:
As for girls "hating themselves," In my case, Victoria's Secret has actually helped with that. I don't have the perfect body, far from it...However, slipping into something silky and pretty, and a dash of vanilla laced perfume makes me feel sexy, something that doesn't happen very often. Oh, perhaps I've said too much. I wouldn't want to send anyone into fits of lust.

[This message has been edited by Peaseblossom (edited 11-06-2001).]

I'm not talking about the effects of the products that Victoria's Secret sells. I'm talking about the effects the advertising has on people, and I thought that my point is obvious. So, your point about how Victoria's Secret products make you feel has zero - nada- to do with this debate. the truth is that scantily clad women with perfect bodies does indeed set an incredibly high standard of how women should look in our society, and the fact is that many girls feel they are ugly if they don't look "perfect". If you try to argue that that is not the case, you are wrong. I've seen it many times, even in my own neice, who is a beautiful girl;, but considers herself fat.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Diemen:
First of all, I admit to playing the devil's advocate a bit on this topic. I don't entirely agree with the marketing tactics in these commercials, but I also don't view it as THAT terrible of a thing.

Wait a minute, I never said I believed in free sex, no shame, no morals. And these commercials don't promote that. I still believe in moral values and for you to suggest that I'm morally corrupt just because I don't become squeamish at the sight of a lingerie ad is a little iffy. What about the monogamous, married couples that use Victoria's Secret? Is it wrong for them to act sexy without shame? But I guess for people who are so uncomfortable with human sexuality that they can't stand a commercial that shows some skin, then I could see how one might assume that Victoria's Secret is promoting "Free sex, no shame, no morals."

Not only did I not say that YOU have no mjoral values, or that you even had LOW moral values, I don't even assume that. If you can find a place in my post which states that, I'll eat my hat. What I said is that it is the way society is going.

Also, your point about married men and women being sexy with each other has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. I'm not talking about what married people or even unmarried people do in their homes, for goodness sake. I'm talking about a commercial, which has nothing to do with that at all. Where did you come up with that?

Good grief, people talk about MY condescending tone. Both of your replies to me have been nothing BUT condescension. You also ridicule my religious beliefs, which is something I never do.

And, as I replied to Peaseblossom,
"I'm not talking about the effects of the products that Victoria's Secret sell. I'm talking about the effects the advertising has on people, and I thought that my point is obvious. So, your point about how Victoria's Secret products make you feel has zero - nada- to do with this debate. the truth is that scantily clad women with perfect bodies does indeed set an incredibly high standard of how women should look in our society, and the fact is that many girls feel they are ugly if they don't look "perfect". If you try to argue that that is not the case, you are wrong. I've seen it many times, even in my own neice, who is a beautiful girl;, but considers herself fat."

 

[Peaseblossom]

First, let me apologize if you thought I was ridiculing you, 80's. I am an incredibly sarcastic person- that doesn't come off well in print. I am not at all trying to be condescending. My point in all this is that I think we're all overreacting. Yes, the media has a skewed vision of the "perfect woman," but that doesn't mean we can't emphasize to young women and the people we love that it's what's inside that matters. Man, that sounds cheesy, but it's the truth. Knowing that people care about who you are takes a lot of the sting out of what you see on television. It would be nice if the media gave us a more realistic version of the female body, but they don't, and they probably won't, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to spend our day arguing about it.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Peaseblossom:
First, let me apologize if you thought I was ridiculing you, 80's. I am an incredibly sarcastic person- that doesn't come off well in print.

Sorry, when I said "both of your posts", I wasn't referring to Diemen's and yours, I was referring to both of Diemen's posts. I didn't find your answer condescending at all. And I took the bit about "causing anyone to lust" as it was intended, a joke, because you put a grin after it.

 

[melon]

I think the idea of "desensitization" is silly, to be quite honest. We were told for years how desensitized Americans were to violence, due to the media, and that was just plain silly. September 11th came and played out just like any Hollywood action film, and we were horrified like anyone else.

The same, perhaps, goes with "sex" in the network media. We are now being told that all these young people have sex, because of the media. Quite simply, our collective world past was quite more sexual than we'd like to ever imagine--but we've done the fatal mistake of romanticizing it. Honestly, we are no different than the people of our past emotionally; it's just that each generation sees things through different proverbial lenses.

Heck, to be quite honest, the only thing I would blame the media for is revisionism and romanticism in the media, making us somehow believe we are so much more evil and lushier now than ever (which is not true). It's distortion that I dislike, whether it be the stereotype that males are all stupid and think solely with their penis; the stereotype that blacks all live in ghettos, are street-wise, and have learning problems; the stereotype that "perfect people" are well-endowed and stupid; the stereotype that college students are all drunk, high, and lushes; the stereotype that all religious are reactionary fanatics with repression issues; the stereotype that all gays have no morals, sleep with every guy in sight, have lisps, are effeminate, and atheists--I'm angry with all that. Unfortunately, it's not solely the media that has "gone too far" societally. Every aspect of society must take some burden of the blame here.

I'm not here to point fingers and pretend I'm all high and mighty now, though. If anyone here read the racist thread, they'll realize I have my own fits of irrationalism. "Victoria's Secret" is only a reflection of latent stereotypes we all know one way or another, and advertising executives are taught to exploit these deep-seated skewed perceptions. Despite the fact you complain all about it, the commercial is successful, because it has 1) made you remember the product, and 2) sold you an image that is favorable for their product. "Victoria's Secret" is all about sex, so they are showing you sex. Now people, when thinking of a place for sexy lingerie for sex, will think "Victoria's Secret" solely on their ad campaigns. They've succeeded greatly, to be honest.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[popkidu2]

wow! I had no idea this thread would go this way. v. interesting as usual

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

desensitisation does occur another word for it is wear, it's a simple matter of emptional friction like friction in the physical world. everything wears and tears away. the first time you smoke weed you get high, years later you can still get high, but you need to smoke more.
you can still be shocked by the same thing, just not to the same extent. what happened on sept 11th doesn't happen often enough to desensitise(hopefully never again), but in war torn places, people do get somewhat used to the chaos around them and it leaves a mental scar but they move along because have seen it before, i would know, i was stuck in kuwait during the iraqi invasion in 1990, it was hard to get over the constant fear of the unknown, bombings and noise outside, but believe me if i could get used to that and successfully sleep, then i could get used to seeing sex on tv without dropping my trousers for a quick wank.

 

[Diemen]

Originally posted by melon:
I think the idea of "desensitization" is silly, to be quite honest. We were told for years how desensitized Americans were to violence, due to the media, and that was just plain silly. September 11th came and played out just like any Hollywood action film, and we were horrified like anyone else.

The same, perhaps, goes with "sex" in the network media. We are now being told that all these young people have sex, because of the media. Quite simply, our collective world past was quite more sexual than we'd like to ever imagine--but we've done the fatal mistake of romanticizing it. Honestly, we are no different than the people of our past emotionally; it's just that each generation sees things through different proverbial lenses.

Heck, to be quite honest, the only thing I would blame the media for is revisionism and romanticism in the media, making us somehow believe we are so much more evil and lushier now than ever (which is not true). It's distortion that I dislike, whether it be the stereotype that males are all stupid and think solely with their penis; the stereotype that blacks all live in ghettos, are street-wise, and have learning problems; the stereotype that "perfect people" are well-endowed and stupid; the stereotype that college students are all drunk, high, and lushes; the stereotype that all religious are reactionary fanatics with repression issues; the stereotype that all gays have no morals, sleep with every guy in sight, have lisps, are effeminate, and atheists--I'm angry with all that. Unfortunately, it's not solely the media that has "gone too far" societally. Every aspect of society must take some burden of the blame here.

I'm not here to point fingers and pretend I'm all high and mighty now, though. If anyone here read the racist thread, they'll realize I have my own fits of irrationalism. "Victoria's Secret" is only a reflection of latent stereotypes we all know one way or another, and advertising executives are taught to exploit these deep-seated skewed perceptions. Despite the fact you complain all about it, the commercial is successful, because it has 1) made you remember the product, and 2) sold you an image that is favorable for their product. "Victoria's Secret" is all about sex, so they are showing you sex. Now people, when thinking of a place for sexy lingerie for sex, will think "Victoria's Secret" solely on their ad campaigns. They've succeeded greatly, to be honest.

Melon

Well said as usual, Melon. I totally agree.

 

[Diemen]

I'd also like to apologize to 80s if I came across as condescending. Sarcasm is hard to convey online - I didn't mean to demean your position, only disagree with it.

I just think that the effect the commercials have on people isn't as bad as you make it out to be. I understand your concerns, but I think you're making this commercial more powerful than it really is. Perhaps in the worst case scenario, the effects you describe are probable, but I am willing to bet that the average negative effect of that commercial is pretty marginal on viewers. And as Melon said, the image of the perfect woman has been skewed for quite some time, so it's not as if this commercial is stepping over lines that hadn't been crossed years earlier.

And I feel that the products and why people buy them do matter in this argument, because smart marketers tailor their commercials to consumer trends, and especially pay attention to why consumers purchase their products. Consumers buy Victoria's Secrets products because they want to feel sexy, so what better way to convey that sense of sexiness that VS's products give, than by making a sexy commercial? In it's simplest form, it's smart marketing.

[This message has been edited by Diemen (edited 11-06-2001).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Diemen, I accept your apology. Thanks very much.
It's "getting real time" for me now, and I'll share something that I'm not proud of now, in the interest of letting people know why any level of porn - soft to hard- angers me.
I became a born again Christian when I was 12. I started with all the classic attitudes that most new-born Christians have - "I'm gonna save the world", "Nothings gonna get me", etc. etc. But a few years later, I saw my first Playboy. And it wasn't my last. For 12 years, I was into Playboy. It was the most miserable 12 years of my life. Why? Because I knew in my spirit that porn is wrong, and yet the temptations kept coming up, and I was failing more than I was succeeding. My spiritual walk was an up and down roller coaster life, marked by success one week, failure the next. I was trying so hard to put that sin away, and I just couldn't do it. Finally, around 1993, I started to uncover the truths about Grace and who Christians really are in Christ. That's when I understood that Christians aren't just people who have been saved and now have God to help them. Nope, I realized that the Word teaches us that Christians are new creations; the old sin nature has been crucified with Christ and the Holy Spirit has moved in and I am now just a vessel, a "jar of clay" to contain the Spirit of Christ. But I still have that flesh to contend with, so I was at an empasse. How to get rid of that "pet" sin when the desires of the flesh are so strong? Well, I had tried getting rid of the sin on my own power and that had never worked. So, from that day on, I approached it with a new attitude; "If I am a New Creation, then to sin against God is to go against my new nature, which is the natutre of Christ". So, everytime I was tempted, I focused on the Bible verse "You are a new creation, behold the old has passed away; all things are new", and in November of 1994, I bought my last Playboy! However, I have found that Satan keeps using the same old tricks and lies to try to get me back into his web. I know that it is not my true nature to look at Playboy. One way I know this is because I have several attarctive female friends, and I don't look at them lustfully or think about them in that way. That's one way I know that when Satan tells me that I WANT to look at Playboy, he's lying. HE wants me to, so that I'll be stuck in the same old ineffectual and sinful rut I was in before. So he lies and he schemes and he brings things into my sight that he hopes will make me fall. And that's the way he works on Christians. He wants us to just easily give up to the temptations and believe that we are not new creations, because when we fight against him in our own power, we will likely lose, but when we are leaning on God and giving the battle over to him, we can't lose. But Satan has used porn against man for a long time now, and it's pretty damn effective in this world. Millions of men are enslaved to it in one way or another. It devalues sex, mocks God and objectifies women, and it's just wrong. But Satan keeps tempting us, throwing it in our faces. That's why I hate "sexy images" of any kind, because I know what kind of damage it can do. If I ever have kids, I'm going to tell them straight up the honest truth about all levels of porn; that it will start out as just women scantily clad, but the temptations will endure and become deeper. I will warn my boy, and I will tell him about what made the difference in my life. Thank you all for reading.

 

[baker6621]

They're hot.