Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children From Sex

[Too Much Asleep]

Has everybody heard the uproar over this book? The big hoopla seems to be over the statement by the author that not all sex between adults and children is necessarily bad. Comments?

Here's a quote from the book: "Teens often seek out sex with older people,and they do so for understandable reasons: an older person makes them feel sexy and grown up, protected and special; often the sex is better than it would be with a peer who has as little skill as they do. For some teens, a romance with an older person can feel more like salvation than victimization."

Here's an article on the book and the controversy: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nyt/20020413/en_nyt/renegade_view_on_child_sex_causes_a_storm

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Since this book is being published by the University of Minnesota press, it has been in the local news quite a bit. I must say, I can appreciate the author's use of the titillating and shocking to generate sales. However, as someone who has had friends deal personally with child sex abuse, I'm not overly fond of making the subject more "PC".

 

[kobayashi]

well this may come out as being off the wall but i see nothing that i would disagree with in that statement.

Teens often seek out sex with older people,and they do so for understandable reasons: an older person makes them feel sexy and grown up, protected and special; often the sex is better than it would be with a peer who has as little skill as they do. For some teens, a romance with an older person can feel more like salvation than victimization.

but a teen acting in the best interest of a teen isn't actually a teen who is on the right course, erm, you know what i mean. she didn't say that a romance with an older person is salvation for a teen, she said that is what it *felt* like for the teen.

she should have a qualifying statement there saying what the teen thinks is best isn't neccessarily so and maybe she does, i have only seen that article.

does that make any sense to anyone else?

 

[Lilly]

"Teens often seek out sex with older people,and they do so for understandable reasons: an older person makes them feel sexy and grown up, protected and special; often the sex is better than it would be with a peer who has as little skill as they do. For some teens, a romance with an older person can feel more like salvation than victimization."

Uhm....as a "teen" (oh how I resent that label), I want to post on this. Yeah, being involved with someone older than you is pretty common with girls my age (17-18). But the guys are usually between 19-21. I don't know exactly how I feel about it. Most of my friends are not sexually active, so I suppose it's a different story. I do, however, feel that most people my age are not ready for the implications that come with being sexually active, so it's flat out not the best idea on earth to do it in the first place. But any kind of sexual relations between someone over 18 and someone under 16 is just wrong.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
In times past, in different cultures, 13 year old girls were considered of an age to marry. They can procreate, so the body is ready to be sexual. But I think we live in such a different time today...it's all tricky territory.

In the village where I grew up in Indonesia, many of my friends were married around age 13 or 14. However, they also were treated as adults, had to manage their own households, and were no longer children. In our present culture, I would hardly say that the same expectations are placed on 13 year olds. So, perhaps the question is not one of physical readiness for sexual activity but emotional and mental readiness to take on the baggage that it implies.

Tricky territory indeed.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
In the village where I grew up in Indonesia, many of my friends were married around age 13 or 14. However, they also were treated as adults, had to manage their own households, and were no longer children. In our present culture, I would hardly say that the same expectations are placed on 13 year olds. So, perhaps the question is not one of physical readiness for sexual activity but emotional and mental readiness to take on the baggage that it implies.

Tricky territory indeed.

I totally agree.

 

[pax]

Have any of you actually read the book? I've not yet myself, but I think the author's larger point is that overprotecting teenagers from healthy sexual expression can do more damage than good.

------------------
Well, the God I believe in isn't short on cash, mister. --Bono

But a day will come
In this dawning age
When an honest man
Sees an honest wage.
--The Edge

 

[melon]

I think that Mohammed's wife was nine when they got married. He was 54 at the time.

Melon

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"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

 

[U2Bama]

Just because it "happens" or some book justifies it doesn't mean it is a good thing. A thirteen year old should be off limits for any adult. There is a difference between that and a 17 year old girl having a 19 year old boyfriend.

~U2Alabama

 

[melon]

Trust me. I don't think it is a good thing. Just wanted to state that it was fairly commonplace until probably the last century.

Melon

------------------
"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

 

[U2Bama]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that you thought it a good thing; my comments were to the topic in general.

~U2Alabama

 

[BAW]

"Teens often seek out sex with older people,and they do so for understandable reasons: an older person makes them feel sexy and grown up, protected and special; often the sex is better than it would be with a peer who has as little skill as they do. For some teens, a romance with an older person can feel more like salvation than victimization."

No, this is so wrong. It happened to me, with my consent, at 14. He was 23. It was not romantic, it was not good, and I felt exploited and used like a piece of garbage. I had no business making that type of decision at that age and he should have been arrested. I was in way over my head without the maturity and life experience to deal with it. Adults should not have sex with minors, period. I think if this would have happened with someone my own age, I would have felt completely different about it now. The balance of power between a 14 year old girl (or guy for that matter) and an adult is not even close to being equal and the adult will always hold the upper hand.

I do think that by the age of 16 or 17, a person is capable of making the decision to have sex, with someone their own age, if they have been given the proper information to protect themselves. I am the mother of a 17 year old son and I know he is having sex with girls his own age but I would be really, really pissed if I found he was sleeping with someone over the age of 18.

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Bono's American Wife:
I had no business making that type of decision at that age and he should have been arrested.

understandably so but as a few people have stated, we do not know how the author continues. there is a controversy regarding this passage but the author may very well, and should, go on to discuss how this decision should not be left up to the teen in whole. there should be other brakes on the process in society.

in the end, as with your situation, it is the persons prerogative. but the more deterrant resources available within society the better so that unfortunate and regretful situations don't occur as often.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-19-2002).]

 

[BAW]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
understandably so but as a few people have stated, we do not know how the author continues. there is a controversy regarding this passage but the author may very well, and should, go on to discuss how this decision should not be left up to the teen in whole. there should be other brakes on the process in society.

in the end, as with your situation, it is the persons prerogative. but the more deterrant resources available within society the better so that unfortunate and regretful situations don't occur as often.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-19-2002).]

True enough and I can only comment on that particular passage, not having read the book. I am really interested in knowing the full context because by itself, its pretty controversial. And I think Sula was right about the titilation factor being used to generate sales.

 

[foray]

I don't think sexual relations are okay between a young teen and a much older person, but what sula said is so true. It really depends on the social context. If the teens are treated like adults (like in Nepal for instance), it sounds fine.

I'm not really interested in the sexual side of it, though. I just wanted to say that I do think a romantic or very close relationship between a young teen and an older person is legitimate. At the age of 15-19, I had at least 2 soulmates who were over 30. But this is all just my humble opinion.

foray

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so bounce, basketball, bounce

 

[joyfulgirl]

I don't anything about the book, but teens aren't children. Teens have sex. Of course a 13 year old is different than an 18 year old and there is the question of emotional maturity...

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 04-19-2002).]

 

[joyfulgirl]

In times past, in different cultures, 13 year old girls were considered of an age to marry. They can procreate, so the body is ready to be sexual. But I think we live in such a different time today...it's all tricky territory.

 

[Angela Harlem]

It may be well and good for those living in Nepal or villages in Indonesia, but for the teens in our society I dont agree it is ok. Most 13 or 14 year olds aren't geared for manaing a household or sex, let alone marriage. Their teens are conditioned to it.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience Bono's American Wife. I hope you feel no long term effects from it. I take it also that you meant you hope your son is only having sex with girl of a suitable age or over18? I'm guessing that's what you meant.

I wonder what this book says about these people well into adulthood wishing to have sex with young girls, or boys for that matter. That I think is the worst part. Kids can be excused due largely to their naivety. For adults there is no such excuse.

**Post script**
Sorry Bono's American Wife, I misread your post the first time. I understand you were saying you want him to be with girls his own age, not excessively younger, not excessively older. Sorry! Dont mind me

[This message has been edited by Angela Harlem (edited 04-20-2002).]

 

[dream wanderer]

the reasons we forbid sex between minors and adults has a practical side as well. I read somewhere (why don't I write these things down...but who knew I would need it again!) that most of the teen-age girls who get pregnant are not involved with their bumbling teen-age boyfriends but with older men. Such laws are supposed to help curb the tide of teen-age pregnancy.

Now while underage boys obviously cannot get pregnant...they can get diseases...like AIDS and hepitatis...and other STDs....from adults (both men and women...obviously)

The laws aren't in place to just avoid emotional and mental trauma...they are there also in the interest of public health....

dream wanderer

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by melon:
I think that Mohammed's wife was nine when they got married. He was 54 at the time.

Melon

Muhammad as in the Prophet? Because he was 25 when he married Khadijah, and since she was a widow, I don't believe she was 9. He definitely wasn't 54, since the Hijrah occured when he was 52.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by foray:

I'm not really interested in the sexual side of it, though. I just wanted to say that I do think a romantic or very close relationship between a young teen and an older person is legitimate. At the age of 15-19, I had at least 2 soulmates who were over 30. But this is all just my humble opinion.

foray

I really agree with you there. I was very mature for my age and often felt very out of sync with people my own age. As a teenager I was always more comfortable talking with people who were significantly older than me but who were youthful in spirit, than I was with my classmates. Now that's kind of flipped on me though...I have more younger friends today than people my own age who are mostly married with kids now. But I have no interest in having a sexual relationship with anyone younger than, say, 5 years.

 

[BAW]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
It may be well and good for those living in Nepal or villages in Indonesia, but for the teens in our society I dont agree it is ok. Most 13 or 14 year olds aren't geared for manaing a household or sex, let alone marriage. Their teens are conditioned to it.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience Bono's American Wife. I hope you feel no long term effects from it. I take it also that you meant you hope your son is only having sex with girl of a suitable age or over18? I'm guessing that's what you meant.

I wonder what this book says about these people well into adulthood wishing to have sex with young girls, or boys for that matter. That I think is the worst part. Kids can be excused due largely to their naivety. For adults there is no such excuse.

**Post script**
Sorry Bono's American Wife, I misread your post the first time. I understand you were saying you want him to be with girls his own age, not excessively younger, not excessively older. Sorry! Dont mind me

[This message has been edited by Angela Harlem (edited 04-20-2002).]

Nothing to be sorry about

I will clarify and say that I am aware that my son is having sex, but with a girl his own age. I don't really like this but I know it's a fact of life and I can't be everywhere he is. I have given him the information he needs to protect himself and have made it clear to him that taking advantage of a younger girl to get sex is very wrong. He's 17 but as far as I know, not interested in girls any younger than that. I would kill him if I found out he was taking advantage of someone too young to know any better. We did have a situation where a woman in her late 20's was calling him and letting him and his friends "party" at her house. I put a stop to that and told her she would be calling him from jail if she didn't leave my son alone, so that's over. I was really disgusted by this woman and couldn't believe that she would be willing to sleep with a then-16 year old boy but I guess they're out there. He is over 6 feet tall and looks 19 or 20 so I have problems with older girls being interested in him all the time.

As far as my situation is concerned, I did have some real problems in my teenage years with self-esteem and feeling unworthy of being loved but I've come a long way since then and have very healthy relationship with my husband. I blamed myself for a long time but realize now that I was taken advantange of by an adult who convinced me that sex meant being in love when at 14, I wasn't ready for either one.

 

[foray]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
I really agree with you there. I was very mature for my age and often felt very out of sync with people my own age. As a teenager I was always more comfortable talking with people who were significantly older than me but who were youthful in spirit, than I was with my classmates

I had to end one of my friendships.

That's interesting how you are now friends with mostly young folks now. Why do you think that is, though? Perhaps your experience as a teen made you more sympathetic towards teens now and you don't write them off as silly brats like most adults do.

foray


[This message has been edited by foray (edited 04-21-2002).]

 

[Zooropa]

Originally posted by paxetaurora:
Have any of you actually read the book? I've not yet myself, but I think the author's larger point is that overprotecting teenagers from healthy sexual expression can do more damage than good.

I agree.

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Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

 

[YellowKite]

At lunch today we were talking about a related subject. A friend has a 6 month old son in home day care. There are two girls who are 2 years old and they keep calling her son's penis his 'special area' No one kept a straight face at that. I recall all sorts of other words for privates, but one lady said she uses only the correct terms with her son who is 5. So we had this huge discussion on what was better - real terms or euphasmisms. On the one hand you have a well informed child who can be knowledgable about their body, but who [lets face it] will use these words in her life and you know some mom or dad is gonna call saying your kid is using 'dirty' words. Frankly I think it is stupid to call it the wee-wee or heiny or anything but as I don't have kids I can't say whether I would feel all that comfortable with clinical terms with a child. Although I did have to address the peeing in the back yard with a neighbors child. I told him that was a rude act in my opinion and that even if it was okay at his house, it wasn't okay here and that is why there are bathrooms with doors. No specific words needed.