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Old 04-14-2012, 03:53 PM   #621
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The drastic solution is to completely eliminate all kinds of unemployment benefits, healthcare benefits and anything that is associated with receiving aid from the government.

Third-world style, spread the wealth but keep it in safe places.
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:22 PM   #622
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The drastic solution is to completely eliminate all kinds of unemployment benefits, healthcare benefits and anything that is associated with receiving aid from the government.

Third-world style, spread the wealth but keep it in safe places.
Yeah, I am trying to figure out if Indy is advocating a Shah-gets-all-the-oil-money model of plutocracy.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:43 PM   #623
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THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE !! YOU COULD MAKE THE SAME VIDEO INTERVIEWING PEOPLE OF ANY SKIN COLOR IN ANY CITY IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's a reason I put in bold “That will not just bankrupt us financially, it will bankrupt us morally." Because that is exactly what is happening.

As Newt Gingrich said in the campaign, "these programs aren't safety nets they're spider webs" that trap people in dependency, keeps them in poverty and at the bottom and deprives them of the dignity of a job.

As I've said, it's not just the loss of monetary capital its the loss of human capital these programs bring on.
Race wasn't even on my mind I was referring to the quote not the video. (I was on my phone and the video didn't show up so I didn't even know it was there). My issue is with making up absurd stances/attitudes and attributing them to Obama.

As for the video, I'll have to watch it and then consider whether to add racism to my outrage. ..
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:28 PM   #624
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C'mon, everyone. It's so simple. Work hard, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you will be rich. Just work hard and you'll make it, you guys.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:52 PM   #625
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let me put this in a way that perhaps people here could understand, i am an able bodied veteran who enjoys the challenges of my career. However, if i suddenly quit my job on monday because i didnt want to work, would you guys object to the govt paying my mortgage, car payments, food, health care, and providing me with beer money? Also, i wont be drug tested because that's too expensive, unlike the govt benefits.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:13 PM   #626
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Simply not wanting to work is different from not being ABLE to work. Of course I object to people getting free handouts who are physically capable of working and not doing so simply because they just don't want to.

But hey, let me give you a scenario in return: My dad had health issues off and on throughout the previous years, but still worked his butt off at every job he did have-he worked in radio, and given the state of radio nowadays, he found himself having to move from station to station quite often in that business in recent years. In 2009 we moved to South Dakota because someone hired him for a job there (he was still working at the job he'd had previously, but things were looking shaky on him staying there much longer, so he went looking around for other options just to be on the safe side). The job paid well, he had a pretty good health insurance plan through his job, things looked okay.

He started the job in October of that year. At the end of November, he lost that job for vague reasons, but my family suspects it was because he was becoming deathly ill at that time. He still went to work every single day up to the day he got let go, but realistically, it probably wasn't wise for him, because he was getting very, very sick.

By December he physically could not get up. He'd gone so far downhill that he could not even sit up, let alone do anything else (and I do mean anything). He had to wind up going into the hospital on a regular basis, and his insurance eventually ran out and he couldn't use it anymore, since he didn't work there anymore.

My mom, despite her years of work in retail and office jobs and experience, could only manage to find a part-time job at Target paying the basic minimum wage. I looked for work, too, but couldn't find anything, and it was a tough choice, because while me working would have definitely helped us, at the same time, when my mom was at work, since we couldn't afford in home care, someone had to be home to take care of my dad, who, once again, could not physically move. We literally could barely pay rent and food, let alone my dad's accumulating medical bills (for which we eventually had to look into Medicare to help us in that regard), and the cheap car we had kept breaking down, which made it very, very difficult when my dad needed to be taken the 2 hours south to Sioux Falls for his treatments since the hospital in our town wasn't as equipped to take care of him as the one in Sioux Falls was (and even when it was working, my mom needed it to get to work, and she often could not go down to Sioux Falls with my dad because she needed to be here to work so she could get paid so we could have a roof over our heads. So my dad kept having to go by ambulance, and the cost for that trip alone adds up). We didn't have furniture in our apartment-we rented a couch when we first moved in and had planned to get more furniture down the line, but again, broke. Couldn't get it.

Oh, and all our attempts to take care of things were for naught, 'cause my dad eventually passed away in April of the following year.

Now, would anyone complain about us getting aid during that time period?

Edited to add: I also find it strange that a veteran has issues with the government helping people out. Um...
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:00 PM   #627
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M_Angel, im very sorry about your dad, and God Bless you all for doing everything you did / and could during such terrible times. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone like you receiving assistance or aid given your situation, an honest to goodness sincere need for the programs that were put into place if i have ever heard of one. Obviously there are many other people out there with situations similar to yours...these are prime examples of why these programs exist.

Personally i have had to draw unemployment once myself, when the company i worked for lost its contract with GM back in 2001, and closed its doors and laid off all 150+ workers. I was on the unemployment for a couple of months in fact, while vigorously looking for work in the meantime, and finally got a job around 911 as the benefits were about to dry up. I get that people need the assistance, as did i, and im all for these programs helping those in need.

As a veteran, im for helping anyone who truly *needs* it. That said, thinking back to that video posted by Indy500 and myself, those people in the video didn't seemed all too interested in finding a job....they just wanted the "Obama bucks". I think there is a difference. I dont know how you tell the difference between who is for real and who is a bullshit artist with an entitlement mentality....but that is what needs to be fixed imho. One guy in the video made a reference to his ancestors being slaves...as if that's why he was entitled to his "Obama bucks". Well guess what, my ancestors were native americans, but you don't see me dressing up in feathers and running around looking for handouts because i don't want to work.

Im also for govt stepping back a bit and letting free enterprise and the markets work a bit too. At some point this has to happen if we ever want to get above 8.2% unemployment or whatever this current figure is.

But please dont think i have an "(R)" next to my name or that i want to bomb Tehran just because im outraged when my tax dollars go to people i dont feel are worthy of govt assistance. Serving in the military often means getting paid very little to put your life on the line even if you dont necessarily believe in what you are fighting for. If anything, being a veteran and having had to rely on unemployment compensation gives me the unique perspective that i dont ever want to have to rely on any of that shit again.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:33 PM   #628
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My issue is with making up absurd stances/attitudes and attributing them to Obama.
I only was using the language of those in the video.

I'm currently reading a book called Coming Apart: The State of White America 1960-2010. The author Charles Murray chose to remove race from the study precisely because it then takes over the discussion.
He details the collapse of the institutions of family, society, work and religion among the poor and how that contributes to the growing inequality in our country. While hardly the only factor, the perverse incentives in many of the Great Society programs are the largest.

The numbers are shocking and sadly are worse among black Americans.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:07 PM   #629
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I thought we left the debunked "welfare queen" stereotypes back in the 1980's? or at least with welfare reform in the 1990's?
And what of the stereotype that anyone wishing to reform or restore fiscal sanity to an entitlement program "hates" the poor or sick or women or whatever? Would you like some quotes from the Welfare Reform debates of the 90's?
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the amount of people who actually use the safety nets in the way that they were intended to be used dwarfs the small amount of people who abuse them. of course we want things to work better, but this is quite different than going back to the brutal pre-great society era where the elderly died alone and in poverty and children starved in Appalachia.
Again, too bad a reasonable discussion of the issue is impossible in today's polemic environment.

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what's consumes 3/4ths of GDP is the following: defense, social security, medicare and medicaid.
3/4ths of government spending you mean? Which ones are driving the debt today? In 10 years? In 50 years? And in the future you can add another expenditure... interest on the debt. Who benefits from that spending?
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please, tell me, which of these programs are "spider webs" that trap people into cycles of dependency?
They all have different challenges. Medicare; soaring health costs, Social security; demographic realities and so on. But if you need an answer you could google "Social Security disability" and "explosion."
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and let me know what in defense you want to cut. because a serious conversation begins there.




35% to 14%. How much more do you prepose we cut?
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:13 PM   #630
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Does "Obam Bucks" seem to you to be a reasonable, sane, polemic-free way to discuss this issue?
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:02 AM   #631
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Does "Obam Bucks" seem to you to be a reasonable, sane, polemic-free way to discuss this issue?
Just as sane as "Bush tax-cuts for the rich" or "War on Women."

Boy, you dropped that "cut defense more" logic pretty quickly.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:43 AM   #632
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M_Angel, im very sorry about your dad, and God Bless you all for doing everything you did / and could during such terrible times. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone like you receiving assistance or aid given your situation, an honest to goodness sincere need for the programs that were put into place if i have ever heard of one. Obviously there are many other people out there with situations similar to yours...these are prime examples of why these programs exist.
Thank you . Glad we're in agreement on that aspect of it all. And there are people even worse off than my family-I can't imagine what it's like for them.

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Personally i have had to draw unemployment once myself, when the company i worked for lost its contract with GM back in 2001, and closed its doors and laid off all 150+ workers. I was on the unemployment for a couple of months in fact, while vigorously looking for work in the meantime, and finally got a job around 911 as the benefits were about to dry up. I get that people need the assistance, as did i, and im all for these programs helping those in need.
I'm glad you were able to get some help during that time, and I'm sorry you had to go through that as well. That really sucks. I'm honestly surprised sometimes that when that many people get laid off at once like that, there aren't more protests. Not to say that'd necessarily solve anything one way or another, but it would be a logical reaction.

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As a veteran, im for helping anyone who truly *needs* it. That said, thinking back to that video posted by Indy500 and myself, those people in the video didn't seemed all too interested in finding a job....they just wanted the "Obama bucks". I think there is a difference. I dont know how you tell the difference between who is for real and who is a bullshit artist with an entitlement mentality....but that is what needs to be fixed imho. One guy in the video made a reference to his ancestors being slaves...as if that's why he was entitled to his "Obama bucks". Well guess what, my ancestors were native americans, but you don't see me dressing up in feathers and running around looking for handouts because i don't want to work.
I've said before, honestly, after witnessing my parents having to go through tons of paperwork just to prove everything was legit, I'm amazed anyone CAN manage to get around the rules and scam off the government like that. Maybe that stuff varies from state to state, maybe some places aren't as rigid as others.

But yes, you're absolutely right, I have a particular scorn reserved for people who scam. It certainly happens and should be dealt with seriously. They're stealing help from those who truly need it, and making people look suspiciously at anyone who dares ask for such aid as a result. It's not fair that the majority of people who genuinely need help have to prove they need it because of a few assholes out there. How to fix that, though, I'm not sure. There's the endless paperwork I mentioned, but again, that provides frustration, that red tape costs money in and of itself, and when someone's genuinely sick or needs to pay their rent or food by the end of the week, they don't exactly have much time to wait for all that stuff to be certified and approved and whatnot.

And of course, one could argue that no matter what we do, people will always find ways to scam the system anyway. Which is a depressing thought. Maybe we need tougher punishments or something. I dunno. Anyone else have any particular novel suggestions on that topic?

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Im also for govt stepping back a bit and letting free enterprise and the markets work a bit too. At some point this has to happen if we ever want to get above 8.2% unemployment or whatever this current figure is.
If there's anything those in the private sector, the free enterprise folks, can do to help fix the situation, yeah, please, by all means, let's take their solutions onboard. It really sucks that people think we should pit one option against the other. Free enterprise has its good points, so does government help. Why people in this country can't seem to find a proper middle ground that allows both sides to help people out when needed, I don't understand.

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But please dont think i have an "(R)" next to my name or that i want to bomb Tehran just because im outraged when my tax dollars go to people i dont feel are worthy of govt assistance. Serving in the military often means getting paid very little to put your life on the line even if you dont necessarily believe in what you are fighting for. If anything, being a veteran and having had to rely on unemployment compensation gives me the unique perspective that i dont ever want to have to rely on any of that shit again.
I don't blame you for that. And you raise a good point that even though veterans get government benefits, we've heard too many unfortunate stories over the years of those benefits being small at best, and not always as helpful as they should be (it's appalling the stories I've heard sometimes about how we've treated those who've risked their lives to help our country out throughout history).

And as for the Tehran thing, that's just something that popped into my head when I saw Irvine's post. I apologize if I implied something about you in that response that I didn't intend, it was a general comment and not targeted at anyone specifically.

I also apologize again if I came off snippy in my response to you earlier, too . I do think these stories from both sides of the aisle are worth sharing, we can get evidence for both arguments easily here. Again, I'm certainly not saying the government is a savior and will fix everything. Of course they won't. Lord knows they have no shortage of problems, and they definitely need to change how they do things, too. And with the corruption that runs rampant, I certainly understand everyone being wary of them helping out.

But the institution itself isn't necessarily the problem, it's the people we put in to run it that are. But that leads to a whole other topic altogther .

It's just a mess all around, and no government or private sector problems will get fixed if everyone's clinging to their side and refusing to talk to the other or listen to what they have to say.

And on a final note, thank you for your service to our country. I appreciate it.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:13 AM   #633
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Just as sane as "Bush tax-cuts for the rich" or "War on Women."

Boy, you dropped that "cut defense more" logic pretty quickly.


I wasn't able to read the charts on my phone last night.

If you'd like to wade into STING territory and think that 1960 is an entirely appropriate year to compare to the present day, you're more than welcome. Or you could realize with the rest of the adults in the room that the USSR is gone, we are not at the very height of the Cold War, and that %of GDP as a proper assessment of need.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:05 PM   #634
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I wasn't able to read the charts on my phone last night.

If you'd like to wade into STING territory and think that 1960 is an entirely appropriate year to compare to the present day, you're more than welcome. Or you could realize with the rest of the adults in the room that the USSR is gone, we are not at the very height of the Cold War, and that %of GDP as a proper assessment of need.
If there were any adults in the room we wouldn't have a debt crisis to begin with.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:21 PM   #635
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True, the man child with daddy issues who previously occuppied the White House was enabled by a Republican majority in both houses to start two wars, pass the largest tax cuts for the wealthy in history, pass the largest unfounded prescription drug entitlement in history, and has now essentially earned himself the title of "worst president in all our lifetimes."

Now, the adults are cleaning up the mess, and if the UK is anything to go by, mindless austerity is not the way to go.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:15 PM   #636
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I also apologize again if I came off snippy in my response to you earlier, too .

I do think these stories from both sides of the aisle are worth sharing, we can get evidence for both arguments easily here. Again, I'm certainly not saying the government is a savior and will fix everything. Of course they won't. Lord knows they have no shortage of problems, and they definitely need to change how they do things, too. And with the corruption that runs rampant, I certainly understand everyone being wary of them helping out.


And on a final note, thank you for your service to our country. I appreciate it.
No worries, thank you for your kind comments

You are correct, both sides need to figure out how to listen to each other and work together and solve these problems together.

That hasn't happened in a long time...and often when the elected officials act ugly and throw tantrums you see it trickle down to the people who elect them. You see it in everything from Iraq to Obamacare to Terry Schiavo to Trayvon Martin. One side says "so what, he shot the kid in self defense" while the other side screams "he's innocent" and before you know it there's black panthers and the KKK marching in the streets. How long till we have a race war....in 2012? Really?

Sometimes i think the Democrats and the Republican parties should just be done away with. Kill the parties (figuratively) and start anew. But then what?

I dont think the tea party was the answer, way too many hateful undertones and south park moments with these folks. But they did get the conversation going, at least, ill give them that.

Anyway, cheers to you and happy sunday
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:28 PM   #637
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Mittens:

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“I wanted to increase the work requirement,” said Romney. “I said, for instance, that even if you have a child 2 years of age, you need to go to work. And people said, ‘Well that’s heartless.’ And I said, ‘No, no, I’m willing to spend more giving day care to allow those parents to go back to work. It’ll cost the state more providing that daycare, but I want the individuals to have the dignity of work.”
But the important thing is that we stay outraged about Hilary Rosen.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:16 PM   #638
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Well, but those were welfare moms he was talking about. They aren't in stable relationships with fathers drawing decent paychecks, so they don't actually deserve to be credited with "working."
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:09 PM   #639
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Well, but those were welfare moms he was talking about. They aren't in stable relationships with fathers drawing decent paychecks, so they don't actually deserve to be credited with "working."


likely black, too, which is the real subtext of what's going on.

what the right is doing is -- yes, dog whistles again -- working over white working class anxieties and traditional racial resentments.



it's been going on for a long time. the great freak out now is that there's a biracial Hawaiian black man in the white house
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:10 PM   #640
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So being a stay at home Mom is work only if you're wealthy? I think what Hilary Rosen said was wrong and indefensible, but so is that kind of hypocritical attitude. I hope the media will give this as much attention as they gave to the Rosen thing. Typical Romney.
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