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Old 02-01-2012, 05:21 PM   #781
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he is not concerned about the very rich, the other GOP candidates would all like to see them paying less or no taxes
No one thinks the very rich are hurting though, that's beside the point.
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again in the same breath, he did say “If it needs repair, I’ll fix it." and he was talking about the safety net for the very poor.
Again, if you were poor enough to need the help of that safety net right now, do you really think you'd hear this as mitigating the "I'm not concerned about the very poor" "We will hear from the Democrat party the plight of the poor" statements? By that logic the safety net will be there for anyone middle class who slips further too, so they've ultimately got nothing to fear either. I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just genuinely see no reason to defend these comments. It was a foolishly tone-deaf thing to say at best, troubling in the resignation it implies towards what's in store for the poor at worst.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:09 PM   #782
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he's not really saying the wrong thing, he's just saying it in the most retarded way possible. especially when the catchcry of his party has been "fuck the safety net!".
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:29 PM   #783
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I think this is probably a little bit blown out of proportion by the media, since Florida is over with they will need all of these gaffes they can to make news stories, as will Newt.

Sure it was a foolish thing to say, but its hardly in the category of Howard Dean's scream or Rick Perry's "oops" moment, or any number of Sarah Palinisms. This is probably more in line with Obama's "57 states" or his "my muslim faith" type stuff.

Romney attempts to clarify his comment here:

Romney responds to ‘very poor’ criticism: ‘My energy is gonna be devoted to helping middle income people, all right?’ | The Ticket - Yahoo! News

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Speaking to reporters on his plane, Romney said his remark had been taken out of context. "No no no no no no no no," Romney said, when asked about the quote. "You've got to take the whole sentence, all right, as opposed to saying, and then change it just a little bit, because then it sounds very different."

Romney's full comment to CNN was: "I'm in this race because I care about Americans. I'm not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there. If it needs repair, I'll fix it. I'm not concerned about the very rich, they're doing just fine. I'm concerned about the very heart of America, the 90, 95 percent of Americans who right now are struggling, and I'll continue to take that message across the nation."

His meaning, he explained on the plane, is that he's focused on the middle class.

"I've said throughout the campaign my focus, my concern, my energy is gonna be devoted to helping middle income people, all right? We have a safety net for the poor in, and if there are holes in it, I will work to repair that," Romney explained. "And if there are people that are falling through the cracks I want to fix that. Wealthy people are doing fine. But my focus in the campaign is on middle-income people. Of course I'm concerned about all Americans--poor, wealthy, middle class, but the focus of my effort will be on middle income families who I think have been most hurt by the Obama economy.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:39 PM   #784
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I mean, he is... really.

It's just that phrase. I heard that a lot growing up as a black kid with mostly white friends in the South.
Maybe that's because I'm a self-avowed "Bono" conservative. Meaning I understand religious based compassion. I understand the philanthropy of those that wish to give back to society and I believe charity is a way of acknowledging your blessings.

It's trust in the statist compassion of the welfare state that baffles me.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:40 PM   #785
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I mean, he is... really.

It's just that phrase. I heard that a lot growing up as a black kid with mostly white friends in the South.
Maybe that's because I'm a self-avowed "Bono" conservative. Meaning I understand religious based compassion. I understand the philanthropy of those that wish to give back to society and I believe charity is a way of acknowledging your blessings.

It's trust in the statist compassion of the welfare state that baffles me.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:41 PM   #786
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Can I ask exactly why that is? No attacks or anything, I'm honestly curious.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:43 PM   #787
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I think you're trying to sugar coat this Mrs G, this gaffe hurts him in so many ways.

Shows he's calloused or at least out of touch.

Shows his base that he's not going to end entitlements.

It's a double edged sword.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:04 PM   #788
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I think you're trying to sugar coat this Mrs G, this gaffe hurts him in so many ways.

Shows he's calloused or at least out of touch.

Shows his base that he's not going to end entitlements.

It's a double edged sword.
Honestly im trying to look at this objectively, and in doing so i can see what he means. At the same time i can see why the opposition (Newt, Obama) would jump all over this. As would anyone in this forum who doesn't support Mitt as well....

Its a freebie he should have never given them...most gaffes are. I would call this his third one this cycle starting with the "10K bet", then the line where he said "i have no problem firing people", and now this.

His opposition will say this is a pattern of behaviour, yet in two of the instances i see it as comments poorly worded and easily taken out of context. The $10k bet was just bad form.

I don't think this makes Romney "unelectable" or "out of touch", all candidates are human and make mistakes from time to time, though its certainly something he could learn from though.

Back to the message, i do hope someone is focused on getting the middle class back to work, as well as the poor, or anyone who needs a job for that matter. I'd hope we can all agree on that.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:12 PM   #789
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Its a freebie he should have never given them...most gaffes are.
Except apparently this line has appeared numerous times in his stump speech.

I have actually seen excerpts from Republican blogs and message boards where the anti-Romney contingent is now saying how this proves that Mormons aren't Christians since no Christian would say something so deeply contrary to Jesus' teachings. These are not criticisms coming from the left.

I just think that it's a tone-deaf statement made by a candidate who is beyond wealthy and already seems out of touch. We live in times where it's just a particularly insensitive thing to say. And as always, it's not what you say as much as how it's perceived. It's pretty clear that this isn't going be perceived well by most.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:14 PM   #790
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Back to the message, i do hope someone is focused on getting the middle class back to work, as well as the poor, or anyone who needs a job for that matter. I'd hope we can all agree on that.
Most certainly .

I know what he meant to say, but it still sounds weird, and it's just frustrating when someone seems to come across like they don't "get it". I'm not necessarily even saying he doesn't care. I just think he's rich and so he doesn't really understand. And that's why your average person can find him or people like him alienating.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:55 PM   #791
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Except apparently this line has appeared numerous times in his stump speech.

I have actually seen excerpts from Republican blogs and message boards where the anti-Romney contingent is now saying how this proves that Mormons aren't Christians since no Christian would say something so deeply contrary to Jesus' teachings. These are not criticisms coming from the left.
Well, im not expert on the Mormon faith, but i do believe there are members here who are. They might be able to shed some light on this...

Quote:
I just think that it's a tone-deaf statement made by a candidate who is beyond wealthy and already seems out of touch. We live in times where it's just a particularly insensitive thing to say. And as always, it's not what you say as much as how it's perceived. It's pretty clear that this isn't going be perceived well by most.
Again with the wealthy...whats wrong with being wealthy? Did we have a collective problem with Kerry's wealth when he ran against Bush? Of course not. What about Kennedy? Probably one of the greatest presidents in the last 100 years right?

If, as you say, we live in times where its insensitive to say things like what he said, then maybe we should be more concerned with how we got in these times & how we are going to get out of these times....not some rich guy's comments taken out of context.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:06 PM   #792
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:16 PM   #793
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Again with the wealthy...whats wrong with being wealthy? Did we have a collective problem with Kerry's wealth when he ran against Bush? Of course not. What about Kennedy? Probably one of the greatest presidents in the last 100 years right?
There's nothing wrong with being wealthy. It's not the fact that someone is rich in and of itself that is the problem.

It's the fact that some rich people fail to realize that they didn't get rich on their own, that they had a LOT of help getting there (if they weren't born into their riches), and that their naive, "Oh, it's so easy to make the kind of money I make" attitude isn't exactly true. The fact that, as I said, they pretend to know what the middle class and poor go through-no, they really don't. And then they propose ideas that do not help middle class or poor people much, if at all, on top of everything. And if they got their riches through less than legal, unsavory means, then there's problems beyond that that REALLY need to be addressed.

I don't expect rich people to give up every single luxury they have, or give away every last penny of their money, or whatever. If you have earned an honest, good living, wonderful, enjoy it, I would if I had it, too.

What I do want, though, is for the rich to stop bitching at the oh-so-horrible idea of maybe having their taxes raised a smidge to help pay for things they want and need in their towns and cities. I do want them to realize they wouldn't be in the position they are if it weren't for the people who helped get them there. I do want rich people to realize that if they run a company and it's struggling, maybe they shouldn't be walking away with big bonuses at the end of the year while the average workers underneath them flounder and lose jobs; instead, they should be putting some of that money into trying to keep their company afloat and keep everyone employed. And I do want them to have enough of a conscience to realize, "You know, I think I have everything I need and want out of life, I should give back some to help those who aren't so fortunate." Rich people who see nothing wrong with having golden toilets or 50 homes or whatever the hell else some of their ilk blow their money on really need to learn the meaning of the words "excessive" and "unnecessary" (and those are the same people who have the nerve to complain about massive, ridiculous spending by a president).
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:20 PM   #794
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Most certainly .

I know what he meant to say, but it still sounds weird, and it's just frustrating when someone seems to come across like they don't "get it". I'm not necessarily even saying he doesn't care. I just think he's rich and so he doesn't really understand. And that's why your average person can find him or people like him alienating.
Im sure the rich still breath the same air as the rest of us. If anything, they get it, because they have more to lose than anyone else and they have (a lot of times) worked very ridiculously hard and gambled and risked so much to get to where they are. Do they understand what its like to be poor? Not in the sense that a person living underneath a bridge does, but im sure they have a lot more drive and ambition than the average poor person does, because they were somehow able to succeed. Not to make light of the poor persons' situation.....by any means at all....but i believe the financially successful people in the world will generally tell you they are the way they are because of hard work, desire, ambition, and more hard work. Also maybe they understand markets, business, networking, and are accomplished at getting things done.

Im not a rich guy, im a hard working middle class person who might wish i were one of the wealthy. I live in a decent home, have good insurance, and drive a couple of nice cars. When i go places sometimes people will approach me in the parking lot and ask me for money. I give it to them when i have it. On some occasions they will then ask me to take them somewhere, in which i decline. Im not sure what happened to these poor souls to put them in the predicament that they are in, but there is only so much i can do. I won't judge them but i have my own responsibilities that have to come first, as harsh as that may sound. We have to help ourselves first, then we can try and be a Jesus.

For 3 years we have had a President who has tried to get things done, with some success, but with just as many failures. I want him to succeed...but if we are still having this same conversation in 9 months then why should we give him another shot? Because we agree with him on social issues? Even though he hasn't really succeeded on turning things around....no. Sometimes you have to put aside your personal grievances (for instance, gay marriage) in exchange what is better for the whole (economy). I realize the GOP controlled Congress is the very definition of obstructionist, and are going to block everything the president tries to push through. If i could, i would fire everyone of them. However we are stuck with 3 more years of those assholes. And if we re-elect Obama then its possible were going to have 4 more years of not-getting-shit-done.

As a result things will probably stay the same. Or, it could get worse, higher unemployment, wrecked housing markets, etc. This President has done some really good things, like saving the auto industry, keeping us from a Depression, Killing Osama Bin Laden, just to name a few. He's also failed on several things...creating new jobs, fixing the housing mess, no balanced budget, record national debt...etc. I want to give him the chance but he's going to have to make the better argument.

I do like this picture:



Well i guess i just went on a rant. And off topic. Im sorry
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:26 PM   #795
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I realize the GOP controlled Congress is the very definition of obstructionist, and are going to block everything the president tries to push through. If i could, i would fire everyone of them. However we are stuck with 3 more years of those assholes.
Actually you can get rid of everyone in the House this November.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:40 PM   #796
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:42 PM   #797
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that'll be damaging for him.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:42 PM   #798
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but im sure they have a lot more drive and ambition than the average poor person does, because they were somehow able to succeed.
Drive and ambition are only part of the makeup, though. Luck, who you know, and other factors of that sort can factor in, too.

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Not to make light of the poor persons' situation.....by any means at all....
Well, unfortunately, by saying things like the above about drive and ambition, that implies that poor people just don't work hard enough. And I just look at my parents and know that's not at all true. Certainly some fall into that trap, but many don't.

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but i believe the financially successful people in the world will generally tell you they are the way they are because of hard work, desire, ambition, and more hard work. Also maybe they understand markets, business, networking, and are accomplished at getting things done.
Some of them, yes. But others, like the Trumps of the world, have done a lot of shady crap to get where they are, too, and that's where the problem starts. Add in the fact that they don't know when to stop when they get rich, there doesn't seem to be a wall where enough is more than enough, and that just makes it worse.

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Im not a rich guy, im a hard working middle class person who might wish i were one of the wealthy. I live in a decent home, have good insurance, and drive a couple of nice cars.
See, and from my perspective, you're already doing better than my family. We have one car, which is older and beat up and has a driver's side handle that is busted and that we've had to put money into fixing up (and we got it for a few hundred dollars from a friend of my sister's, because that's all we could afford).

We're living in the top floor of someone else's house, in a little apartment, which we only found after having to stay at my sister's very tiny house (that can fit two people fine, but four's a lot) because it took forever to find anyplace in town within our family's price range, and we finally found this one because my family knew the family who owned it. And we make too much for public housing.

My mom's got decent insurance from her job. Not great, but decent. I on the other hand have none at all.

And I still consider us well ahead of where we've been in the past-living in motels, trailer park, sleeping in our car once, stuff like that. It is a definite upgrade and I have a roof over my head and can eat at night and such, and my family aren't big spenders, so we get by all right.

But it's still not even close to being considered proper "middle class" existence. And so when I hear things like what Mitt said, it bothers me immensely.

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When i go places sometimes people will approach me in the parking lot and ask me for money. I give it to them when i have it. On some occasions they will then ask me to take them somewhere, in which i decline. Im not sure what happened to these poor souls to put them in the predicament that they are in, but there is only so much i can do. I won't judge them but i have my own responsibilities that have to come first, as harsh as that may sound. We have to help ourselves first, then we can try and be a Jesus.
I agree that you do what you can. One person giving money away won't solve every problem, and there's a ton of other factors involved, too. This problem won't fix itself overnight, and I'm certainly not naive enough to expect our government to come save me and my family at the drop of a hat. We're putting in as much effort as we can, too.

But I don't agree with that last line-I think it's possible to try and do both at the same time.

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For 3 years we have had a President who has tried to get things done, with some success, but with just as many failures. I want him to succeed...but if we are still having this same conversation in 9 months then why should we give him another shot? Because we agree with him on social issues? Even though he hasn't really succeeded on turning things around....no. Sometimes you have to put aside your personal grievances (for instance, gay marriage) in exchange what is better for the whole (economy). I realize the GOP controlled Congress is the very definition of obstructionist, and are going to block everything the president tries to push through. If i could, i would fire everyone of them. However we are stuck with 3 more years of those assholes. And if we re-elect Obama then its possible were going to have 4 more years of not-getting-shit-done.

As a result things will probably stay the same. Or, it could get worse, higher unemployment, wrecked housing markets, etc. This President has done some really good things, like saving the auto industry, keeping us from a Depression, Killing Osama Bin Laden, just to name a few. He's also failed on several things...creating new jobs, fixing the housing mess, no balanced budget, record national debt...etc. I want to give him the chance but he's going to have to make the better argument.
I do agree with this. Obama is going to have to get tougher. If he has an idea that he knows will indeed benefit this country, and someone wants to try and block it, he should be more forceful and say, "No. This is a good idea. You have no legitimate reasons why it should not go ahead. So I'm going to put it out there/implement it. If the American people don't like it, they are the ones I ultimately will have to answer to (and if the American people do like it, then the opposer will have to answer to us)." And he, or people who work for him, will need to do a much better job of explaining to the public why this idea or that he puts out is a good one and how exactly it will benefit everybody (and the media will need to help in that regard, too. I know some of the policy talk may not be "sexy" or "controversial" enough for headlines, but if it's good policy that helps us, we need to know about it. Every last detail of it).

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Well i guess i just went on a rant. And off topic. Im sorry
It's okay . I may be getting a bit heated here, too, so I need to remember to keep my cool as well. When an issue touches people personally, it's tough to not let one's emotions get in the way of everything.

I will say now I swear any anger I feel is not at all a personal attack on anyone here. Just general frustration. At both sides. Please, do not get me wrong, people, the Democrats have their own set of problems, too. I'm not arguing that at all. Matter of fact, I saw an interview with Mark Foley earlier tonight where he talked about how some Democrats were noted to say, in his presence, "Oh, right, we have to cater to them ("them" being the gay community), because that's what the Democrats want.", despite the fact that these particular Democrats were anti-gay rights. Foley said, "I'd much rather someone tell me to my face they hated me than pretend to like me and support me only to whisper about me behind my back." And I fully agree with that. That story really bothered me.

And now I'm rambling. *Shuts up and sits down and lets someone else talk*
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:07 PM   #799
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Again with the wealthy...whats wrong with being wealthy?
Not one person in here said there was anything wrong with wealth. I have to say you're coming off a little out of touch yourself...
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:11 PM   #800
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Angela, I'm so happy to have you back around here.

Really wonderful post, I think that your experience is really common these days and it's the nitty gritty of it that just doesn't get told. It's that sort of struggle that is a good juxtaposition to Mitt Romney's "I didn't make much last year" when he made $370K. Yes, to him it's not much but to almost everyone else, that is a small fortune if made annually. For some, it's a complete life changer.

I have lived through interesting times in my life - going from a dirt poor and homeless refugee (the clothes on my back really were the only things I had) whose family moved around a lot and relied on social assistance until we could get ourselves situated properly, to a pretty ordinary middle class existence in a middle class neighbourhood, and a slightly lower-middle class high school. Now I am probably what you would consider to be upper middle class - I make 6 figures and so does my partner. We live comfortably, we don't really think about money, we travel several times a year. He's the love of my life and I'd be the happiest woman with or without our financial comforts but I'd also be naive if I didn't think that they made it easier for us.

Am I ambitious? Sure. Do I work hard? I actually think that I work way too hard, often to an unhealthy point. Am I capable? Well, they haven't fired me yet so I suppose so. But you know what, I look around at people who work with me and there are many, MANY who didn't work a quarter as hard as I did. They went to private boarding schools for $60K/year, they got into every college they applied to, they graduated from law school with no debt since they lived off trust funds or their parents paid, they had interviews at every top firm because their father knew the right people, when they got engaged, their parents bought them $1-million condos or houses and followed that up with lavish weddings. When I started working I'd go to Costco to buy my pantyhose in bulk...6 pairs for $15 or whatever it was. They'd pay $18 for one pair of Calvin Klein's. Nevermind our other clothes. The point is that I killed myself working and studying to get to where I was, had a pile of student debt and I feel like even today I have to work 3x as hard as they do because I just don't have the same safety net. Our world is not the meritocracy that people think it is. And the very wealthy have immense advantages that the rest of us don't have, from the moment that they are born. It's a huge mistake to attribute it to simply hard work and ambition - I long ago realized that's something that the middle class tells itself to keep the dream alive.

Having said all that, I can't comprehend how anyone who "made it" wouldn't feel an overwhelming desire to pull other people up with them. Regardless of the difficult things that happened in my life, I feel like I am an extremely fortunate person to have lived this life. I also feel a tremendous amount of responsibility to help those who were like me. You want to increase my taxes by a couple of percentage points and spend it on public education or infrastructure? You know what, go ahead. I'll still live very comfortably, I'll still spend $ and buy things, and I won't be any less interested in starting my own business than I am now. And I am not your 1% by any means.

There are people who are really struggling and hurting in this economy. They are not me. It would be a moral failing for me to demand a lower tax rate when the 95% below me are barely keeping afloat.

I actually find most of the things said by this GOP bunch to be appalling. I am disappointed in Obama, but to let these people run the show? No thanks.
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