Google Agrees To Censor Searches in China

[the iron horse]

"To obtain the Chinese license, Google agreed to omit Web content that the country's government finds objectionable. Google will base its censorship decisons on guidance provided by Chinese government officials.

Although China has loosened some of its controls in recent years, some topics, such as Taiwan's independence and 1989's Tiananmen Square massacre, remain forbidden subjects.

Google officials characterized the censorship concessions in China as an excruciating decision for a company that adopted "don't be evil" as a motto. But management believes it's a worthwhile sacrifice."

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/24/D8FBCF686.html


*yeah, a good flood of money causes some to toss freedom out the window*

 

[deep]

so what

 

[A_Wanderer]

Amoral.

 

[financeguy]

Further proof that governments are a greater threat to freedom than business.

 

[VertigoGal]

Why should this surprise anyone? And how would simply not operating there at all advance democracy in China?

 

[BVS]

*yeah, a good flood of money causes some to toss freedom out the window*

Law of the land...

 

[U2democrat]

fuck censorship

 

[the iron horse]

Why should this surprise anyone? And how would simply not operating there at all advance democracy in China?

This does not surprise me, I'm just wondering Google and other companies eager to do business with China are really helping the people in China gain freedom.

*or like i posted, just pocketing the money*


I doubt if many members here would like their search engines restricted.

They are real people over there.

Do you care or not?

 

[Justin24]

Power to the People!

 

[BVS]

I doubt if many members here would like their search engines restricted.

They are real people over there.

Do you care or not?

It's not a matter of caring or not. We're not in the business of liberating the country.

 

[VertigoGal]

This does not surprise me, I'm just wondering Google and other companies eager to do business with China are really helping the people in China gain freedom.

*or like i posted, just pocketing the money*


I doubt if many members here would like their search engines restricted.

They are real people over there.

Do you care or not?

umm...of course I realize they are real people, and of course I care.

My point is that any form of internet is better than none and will at least give the country a limited view of the rest of the world...If these google guys got all noble about it and refused the enormous business opportunity, do you think the Chinese government would blink twice?

 

[the iron horse]

It's not a matter of caring or not. We're not in the business of liberating the country.

I'm not talking about some gorverment.

I am thinking about people.

What should we be doing then, to demand the freedom of all people to free speech and internet searches?

 

[VertigoGal]

Allow a middle class to develop & hope it takes care of itself?...Ultimately I suppose it's up to the Chinese to demand their own freedom at least with the situation as it is now.

 

[BVS]

I'm not talking about some gorverment.

I am thinking about people.

What should we be doing then, to demand the freedom of all people to free speech and internet searches?

I just think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Yes I would love freedom of speech for all, but the law of their land doesn't allow for that...

So an internet company isn't the means in which to fight this battle.

 

[the iron horse]

I just think you are barking up the wrong tree.

"In this present world system, I'm always barking up the wrong tree."

Yes I would love freedom of speech for all, but the law of their land doesn't allow for that...

"The Nazis had laws."

So an internet company isn't the means in which to fight this battle.

"So where do we fight this battle?"

 

[yolland]

Allow a middle class to develop & hope it takes care of itself?...Ultimately I suppose it's up to the Chinese to demand their own freedom at least with the situation as it is now.

This is precisely the view of a great many political scientists specializing in China, actually--that freedom will come only if and when China's growing middle classes want it to come. Which they almost certainly will, given the interest (economic and otherwise) that sector typically has in free exchange of information.

Though to be fair to iron horse, that doesn't really constitute an adequate answer to the ethical questions involved in extending the benefits of ICTs to authoritarian governments, particularly where profits are involved.

Comparing them to the Nazis is quite a stretch though--it's probably not very helpful to see another Hitler in every government which engages in some amount of cutting its citizens off from the rest of the world; we should keep enough perspective to be able to analyze these dilemmas relative to the big picture. Which includes major human rights violations to be sure, but that's pretty far from genocide and besides, many aspects of China's human services, such as healthcare, have actually deteriorated atrociously since the advent of capitalism.

 

[BVS]

"So where do we fight this battle?"

I don't know if it's our battle to fight. Like VertigoGal said, it's up to the Chinese to demand it's own freedoms. All we can do is support those actions.

Denying them a search engine surely isn't going to help...

 

[the iron horse]

I don't know if it's our battle to fight. Like VertigoGal said, it's up to the Chinese to demand it's own freedoms. All we can do is support those actions.

Denying them a search engine surely isn't going to help...

It is our battle, if we believe in freedom for all people.


*you can do things that can help change this crazy world*

 

[VertigoGal]

Though to be fair to iron horse, that doesn't really constitute an adequate answer to the ethical questions involved in extending the benefits of ICTs to authoritarian governments, particularly where profits are involved.

Yes...but at the same time, it's not like they're selling the Chinese army/police deadly weapons. The censorship may not directly advance their freedom but it's not a threat to it and any form of internet can only help in the long run, imo.

ps- I think we should have a doomsday thread on how the American middle class is rapidly deteriorating and any remnants of democracy will soon follow plunging us into a dark age.

 

[the iron horse]

Yes...but at the same time, it's not like they're selling the Chinese army/police deadly weapons. The censorship may not directly advance their freedom but it's not a threat to it and any form of internet can only help in the long run, imo.

ps- I think we should have a doomsday thread on how the American middle class is rapidly deteriorating and any remnants of democracy will soon follow plunging us into a dark age.

One thought, VertigoGal, it is scary how we seem to be so willing to jump into the brave new world.

 

[yolland]

Funny you should bring that phrase up, I was just thinking maybe we could combine VertigoGal's doomsday proposal with financeguy's utopia/dystopia proposal and see where it goes. Google + Wal-Mart = not quite what Adam Smith and Max Weber had in mind...

 

[BVS]

It is our battle, if we believe in freedom for all people.


*you can do things that can help change this crazy world*

Ok well then I guess I should ask you what Google should have done?

 

[the iron horse]

Ok well then I guess I should ask you what Google should have done?

Thay should have said no.

That is my liberatarian opinion.


Freedom is a lot more important than $$$.

 

[yolland]

Well unless A_W meant to say immoral, it would seem then that our respective resident libertarians disagree.

 

[verte76]

Google deals in search engines, not political liberation campaigns. You can't expect them to liberate China, the people will have to do that. I'm sure it's illegal to mention Tibet on any site in China as well.

 

[BVS]

Thay should have said no.

So no internet is better than censored internet?
So I guess you wouldn't do business with any country that wasn't a free democracy.

Maybe you should join Bush in his spreading agenda...

That is my liberatarian opinion.

Your political affiliation has nothing to do with it...

Freedom is a lot more important than $$$.

I agree. At the end of the day freedom is more important.

But if the power isn't in your hand, then what are you accomplishing by denying your business? Nothing.

 

[yolland]

Oh, China's had the Internet for ten years now, BVS. Including Google access. It's just that before they had what was waggishly called the "Great Firewall," designed by the government, blocking selected types of search results. The difference is now, Google's extending them their own China-specific interface to do that with.

 

[BVS]

Oh, China's had the Internet for ten years now, BVS. Including Google access. It's just that before they had what was waggishly called the "Great Firewall," designed by the government, blocking selected types of search results. The difference is now, Google's extending them their own China-specific interface to do that with.

I understand that. I meant that in a very generic way. As in if everyone was to use horse's logic and no outside business would work with China they essentially wouldn't have much of an internet.

 

[yolland]

Ah well that's true. This is one of the things that's both exciting and unnerving about the accelerating spread of ICTs, actually--the various components needed to achieve full e-access are now distributed through so many different channels that there is no one readily controllable master diffuser of it all. Which makes for more freedom in some ways, yet for easier collaboration between some of the world's more suspect powers-that-be and ICT providers as well.

Sorry if I'm being here, this is a major research area for me right now so I'm quite caught up by all this.

 

[lady luck]

I'm not talking about some gorverment.

I am thinking about people.

What should we be doing then, to demand the freedom of all people to free speech and internet searches?

Join Amnesty, for instance...


the limitation of Internet is just one of the absurd thing going on in China...

Also Yahoo bent to the Government and violated the privacy of a dissenter, giving his address and details to the Chinese Autorithies. Is this fair?
I am not that sure of it...
(For details: www.amnesty.org)