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Old 08-13-2006, 06:12 PM   #21
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No it didn't, was this girl undergoing any medical treatment?
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:36 PM   #22
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Something you always hear in the movies and TV that really irks me is people saying "It was God's will".
Me too. I think it's really insensitive.
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Old 08-13-2006, 09:44 PM   #23
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
An argument I have had with Calvinists and Reformed Theologists is about their idea that "God's will is always done". I don't believe that. I think free will and natural disasters/diseases ensure that. For instance, is it God's will that a child be raped by an evil man? I would say not. That act is committed by someone who has a free will and chose to do an evil thing.

..............................

Of course, Calvinists say that the "all" doesn't mean "all". If it does, then their idea of predestination doesn't hold up.
Most Calvinists understand the distinction between freedom and freedom of the will. Free will refers only to the will. We don't use the term "will" for that which makes choices.

Anyway, as a Christian, the concept of petitionary prayer was a HUGE struggle for me. It's really the one issue that always kept me on the edge because I never found a way to reconcile prayer with reality. But then I read the most significant piece of theology in my life. Like deep said at the very beginning, if God does answer petitionary prayers and answers them to the extent of OUR will, then how do you explain why some are answered and others aren't? I struggled with that for years and years and the icing on the cake was when my best friend got cancer AGAIN and died a slow, painful, terrible death even thought there were about 1000 people praying for her on a daily basis and she was as pure as the driven snow. But I read a piece on petitionary prayer that cleared up this issue for me. I'm not going to get into it here because I have many times before in other threads, but my question is this: if you're criticising Calvinists for putting faith behind "God's will" rather than human wants and desires, then how do you explain the unanswered prayer of Jesus himself? If Jesus - 100% human but also completely sinless in the eyes of the Lord - can pray and pray and still God is unchanged then how can we expect God to intervene on our behalves?

The problem with the "it is God's will" card is that it's often played wrong. Like I said before, my friend died at age 20. At her funeral I was standing in a circle of friends, trying to comfort her roommate when one of our Deans came by, put her hand on my friend's shoulder and said something to the effect of "God has a reason for everything." Let me tell you, I'm not a fighting person and I don't get angry easily but at that moment I was so enraged that I had to turn and walk away from the situation in order to not hit that woman in the face. To this day I cannot stand the sight of her. It is never God's will for kids to die slow and cruel deaths.



I'm not sure what you're getting at in the second bit there. John Calvin believed in the supreme authority of God, such that if God were to predestine who was saved and who wasn't, then so be it, God is God and He has that power. Whether or not predestination is actually practiced by God is an entirely different issue. You cannot believe in an entirely supreme God if you refuse to accept that he COULD predestine people to various fates, if that were His will (no one's arguing that it is).
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:26 PM   #24
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I believe that there is a scientific explanation for "spontaneous remission," and some day, I hope that we are able to understand it so that it can be medically induced into others.

Of course, as God would be the creator of science, I have no problem giving thanks. I just don't want it to be an excuse for inaction on the part of mankind.

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Old 08-13-2006, 11:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

I'm not sure what you're getting at in the second bit there. John Calvin believed in the supreme authority of God, such that if God were to predestine who was saved and who wasn't, then so be it, God is God and He has that power. Whether or not predestination is actually practiced by God is an entirely different issue. You cannot believe in an entirely supreme God if you refuse to accept that he COULD predestine people to various fates, if that were His will (no one's arguing that it is).
I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe that God DID predestine, so yes, people are arguing that he did.

As you probably know, Calvinism is based on 5 points, called (3)TULIP. Points 2 through 4 specifically address predestination, and yes, they say that God DOES predestine. In case you forgot points 2 through 4, here they are:

(2) Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

(3) Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

(4)Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.


By the way, if "all" means "all", then predestination goes out the window because if God:

(1) Desires that all men be saved

and

(2) Predestines salvation

then wouldn't it follow that

(3) God would predestine all people to salvation?
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Old 08-14-2006, 03:26 AM   #26
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god's a choosey one, then. do the ones who aren't lucky get a harp played by an angel?

lucky young girl, though.
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Old 08-14-2006, 05:01 AM   #27
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I'd prefer the harp played by Harpo.

But that's just me
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Old 08-14-2006, 07:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe that God DID predestine, so yes, people are arguing that he did.

As you probably know, Calvinism is based on 5 points, called (3)TULIP. Points 2 through 4 specifically address predestination, and yes, they say that God DOES predestine. In case you forgot points 2 through 4, here they are:


By the way, if "all" means "all", then predestination goes out the window because if God:

(1) Desires that all men be saved

and

(2) Predestines salvation

then wouldn't it follow that

(3) God would predestine all people to salvation?
TULIP doctrine was generated by the Canons of Dort after the death of John Calvin. It's more post-Calvin Protestantism than Calvinism. They took almost meaningless passags from Calvin's Institutes (yes, predestination is the BIG one) and twisted his words until they settled on the halfass TULIP. Calvinism is based on the teachings of John Calvin. This is a huge misunderstanding and on-going bone of contention among "Calvinists"/Protestant Christians (mainly Christian Reformed). As a professing member of the Christian Reformed Church of NA, I will accept TULIP and the Canons as the integral theology of the denomination, but I'd never say it is the basis for Calvinism. Jean Cauvin alone is the basis for Calvinism.

Perhaps God does predestine all men to be saved? The point of Calvin's doctrine of predestination is NOT to say who is saved and who isn't.
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Old 08-14-2006, 07:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


TULIP doctrine was generated by the Canons of Dort after the death of John Calvin. It's more post-Calvin Protestantism than Calvinism. They took almost meaningless passags from Calvin's Institutes (yes, predestination is the BIG one) and twisted his words until they settled on the halfass TULIP. Calvinism is based on the teachings of John Calvin. This is a huge misunderstanding and on-going bone of contention among "Calvinists"/Protestant Christians (mainly Christian Reformed). As a professing member of the Christian Reformed Church of NA, I will accept TULIP and the Canons as the integral theology of the denomination, but I'd never say it is the basis for Calvinism. Jean Cauvin alone is the basis for Calvinism.
You know a lot more about the history of it than I do. The fact remains that I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe in TULIP 100%, including the idea of predestination.
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Old 08-14-2006, 07:49 AM   #30
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You know a lot more about the history of it than I do. The fact remains that I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe in TULIP 100%, including the idea of predestination.
Well, now you have I live in a Calvinist area and went to Calvinist schools (including college) and around here, I'd say it's more like 50/50. Many of the people still holding onto TULIP as "Calvinist" doctrine do so merely because they haven't taken the time to actually study John Calvin. So I guess those people at the Canons win - now many people falsely attribute their own twisted theologies to the great works of John Calvin. I don't like TULIP because it incorrectly defines and prioritizes the finer points of Calvinism. On the surface, those five points are not inconsistent with Calvin, but their definitions and theological interpretations are. Also, just the fact that they overwhelmingly deal with the concept that everyone is depraved and we're doomed because God has already decided who's in and who's out, yadda yadda is very un-Calvinist. Calvin originally wrote about predestination because someone in his church asked a very specific question and in order to develop a complete theology, no loopholes, he had to address the conflict between there being a supreme and all-powerfull, all-knowing God with the idea that people are saved based on their own good works and religious convictions. Predestination does not need to exist; there only needs to be acceptance that it could because if you don't accept that it could then you can't accept that God is all-knowing and all-poweful.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:53 AM   #31
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I believe in science, and I want to and do believe in miracles. They can and do happen. Small ones, big ones, everyday ones.

But I have a real problem just saying that God answered prayers and cured anyone , because what does that say about the "unanswered" prayers (well the ones with the sad, tragic and thus wrong answer). The God I believe in would have nothing to do with that, and that is not Him. I certainly do believe in the power of prayer and in the strength and comfort and love that it creates. Prayer can be a component of miracles, but I believe miracles can also happen without prayer.

Maybe somewhere between science and prayer and faith and all of that is a powerful force and a place that we don't even know about. Maybe some things are better kept as mysteries.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:59 AM   #32
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But I have a real problem just saying that God answered prayers and cured anyone , because what does that say about the "unanswered" prayers (well the ones with the sad, tragic and thus wrong answer). The God I believe in would have nothing to do with that, and that is not Him. I certainly do believe in the power of prayer and in the strength and comfort and love that it creates. Prayer can be a component of miracles, but I believe miracles can also happen without prayer.

I completely agree. Prayer brings people together to comfort one another and allows people to have a channel for communicating with God. But if prayer was all it took, then why was Jesus not spared?
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Old 08-14-2006, 09:11 AM   #33
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

I completely agree. Prayer brings people together to comfort one another and allows people to have a channel for communicating with God. But if prayer was all it took, then why was Jesus not spared?
The Bible tells us Jeus knew he was to die. He knew it was God's will. He came to Earth to die. That's the point. He was God's sacrifice for our sins. He died, and then rose again, conquering death for our sake.

Prayer isn't always all it takes. I beleive science and modern medicine are often the answer to prayer. On the other hand somtimes prayers aren't answered. Then there's miracles, which happen a lot more often than people would think.
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Old 08-14-2006, 11:46 AM   #34
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The Bible tells us Jeus knew he was to die. He knew it was God's will. He came to Earth to die. That's the point. He was God's sacrifice for our sins. He died, and then rose again, conquering death for our sake.
It doesn't change the fact that he was fully human when he came and that he pleaded with God for his life. Many cancer patients basically know they are going to die. It's no different.
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Old 08-14-2006, 12:00 PM   #35
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It doesn't change the fact that he was fully human when he came and that he pleaded with God for his life. Many cancer patients basically know they are going to die. It's no different.
Did he plea for his life?

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
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Old 08-14-2006, 07:26 PM   #36
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
But I have a real problem just saying that God answered prayers and cured anyone , because what does that say about the "unanswered" prayers (well the ones with the sad, tragic and thus wrong answer). The God I believe in would have nothing to do with that, and that is not Him. I certainly do believe in the power of prayer and in the strength and comfort and love that it creates. Prayer can be a component of miracles, but I believe miracles can also happen without prayer.
All prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer is not the one we want. After many trying times in life, with many hours spent on my knees, I’ve come to realize that prayer is real, it is powerful, but the biggest thing is that prayer changes me. God is not a genie in a lamp, ready to do our bidding with one quick arrow prayer. Prayer is part of the relationship with God, and at the end of the day it helps make our minds more like His.
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Old 08-14-2006, 09:50 PM   #37
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All prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer is not the one we want. After many trying times in life, with many hours spent on my knees, I’ve come to realize that prayer is real, it is powerful, but the biggest thing is that prayer changes me. God is not a genie in a lamp, ready to do our bidding with one quick arrow prayer. Prayer is part of the relationship with God, and at the end of the day it helps make our minds more like His.
Wow, I could not agree more!
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