God and Man/Man and God - Questions

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
tolerant

That word sums it up, but Spiral_Staircase, I raise a toast to everything you said.

~U2Alabama

[gvox]

Whatever, look, its all good to take me to task for being intolerant, but its one of THE ULTIMATE FORMS OF RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE as far as Im concerned to denounce someone and call them a false Christian or not up to par, just because they don't see God the same way you do.

That is what 80s has been doing since I opened my mouth and if your little circle doenst see it (dont worry, Ive read how a few of you immaturely and self-servingly thank each other for 'getting my back') I really could care less.

The difference between the way I believe and the way he believes is that I believe that he can believe whatever he wants, and as long as he keeps the two greatest commands that Jesus gave us, he'll be OK in God's eyes, even if he is wrong about the doctrines he so strictly followed. He, on the other hand, believes that unless I believe as he does, I am a false Christian who will not be saved.

Now THAT is intolerance!

Gabriel


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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
and if your little circle doenst see it (dont worry, Ive read how a few of you immaturely and self-servingly thank each other for 'getting my back') I really could care less.

Look! Gabriel has figured us out! Yes, we have a "little circle," The Cult of 80sU2IsBest, or, as some call us, "Nine Bastards Dressed In Black." We basically go around spreading The Gospel According to 80sU2IsBest and then "get each others' backs" for it and return thanks. Wanna join?

~U2Alabama

[gvox]

Keep us posted on the next time God speaks to you, I'd love to hear whats on His mind recently. Are you some sort of prophet or something? What a rare privilege. If I were you, I wouldnt be wasting my time on an internet bulletin board, I'd be forming my own church, what with my direct line to God and all...

Just for the interest of other more reasonable people, there have been numerous studies that have shown that most "encounters" with God are completely explainable psychological phenomena.

Gabriel

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:

Keep us posted on the next time God speaks to you, I'd love to hear whats on His mind recently. Are you some sort of prophet or something? What a rare privilege. If I were you, I wouldnt be wasting my time on an internet bulletin board, I'd be forming my own church, what with my direct line to God and all...
Just for the interest of other more reasonable people, there have been numerous studies that have shown that most "encounters" with God are completely explainable psychological phenomena.
Gabriel

If you truly believe in God, why do you limit his powers, by saying he doesn't perform this miracle or he doesn't perform that miracle?
That is so funny that you accuse me of being intolerant of others' beliefs, but you say things like this, that obviously show that you have no tolerance for my belief in miracles.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-16-2002).]

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
Look! Gabriel has figured us out! Yes, we have a "little circle," The Cult of 80sU2IsBest, or, as some call us, "Nine Bastards Dressed In Black." We basically go around spreading The Gospel According to 80sU2IsBest and then "get each others' backs" for it and return thanks. Wanna join?
~U2Alabama

Spiral, Thanks for getting my back! Bama, thanks to you for getting my back, also!
I'm writing it down in my ledger as we speak. I owe you both a back-getting.
As far as our practice of wearing black is concerned, you gotta love the fashion-It's so Johnny Cash-ish.

[gvox]

Well at least you actually read my post this time Bama, good for you.

Too bad you missed the intolerance part. One day you should ask that individual what God has told him will happen to those who don't believe as he does. Then you'll find out just how tolerant most 'christian' religions are.

Gabriel




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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
Whatever, look, its all good to take me to task for being intolerant, but its one of THE ULTIMATE FORMS OF RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE as far as Im concerned to denounce someone and call them a false Christian or not up to par, just because they don't see God the same way you do.
That is what 80s has been doing since I opened my mouth and if your little circle doenst see it (dont worry, Ive read how a few of you immaturely and self-servingly thank each other for 'getting my back') I really could care less.
The difference between the way I believe and the way he believes is that I believe that he can believe whatever he wants, and as long as he keeps the two greatest commands that Jesus gave us, he'll be OK in God's eyes, even if he is wrong about the doctrines he so strictly followed. He, on the other hand, believes that unless I believe as he does, I am a false Christian who will not be saved.
Now THAT is intolerance!
Gabriel

You have a FUNNY way of remembering things...you remember them in a way that didn't happen at all. Looks like I will have to remind you who was targeting who. I woke up yesterday morning and found the following two posts aimed at me. I hadn't written to you at all before this, and you admitted you had gleaned sufficient information about me from reading my posts for an hour straight. Here are the two post which you used to so politely introduce yourself to me:

(1)-from this thread: That's what makes a belief in God such a hard sell...people who attribute things to God. God didn't save 80s ass anymore than he saved that WTC survivor that walked out of a building that 2000+ people perished in...or were those people hopeless cases in His eyes? Cmon!

(2)-from another thread - OK, 80s, Ive been graced with reading alot of your posts over the last hour and I have to say that really, its not worth it. You seem to get quite worked up when you cant convert others to your way of thinking. Ive been down that path and its just a waste of time, and not worth it. There are MILLIONS of people out there that think that the whole story is a crock of shit (IM NOT ONE OF THEM) and you will never convince them by beating them into submission with your Bible. As Bono sings 'let it go!'!

You see, you have been targeting me from the beginning! When I said that a religion that denies the deity of Christ is not a Christian denomination, I was saying what I believe. I would have said it to anyone. It was nothing personal. Did I say, "gabrielvox, you don't measure up?", or "gabrielvox, you are going to hell?" NO, I didn't, but that's what you are telling everyone I said. You need to start relating things the way they really happened. My disagreements with you have been on purely religious issues, but for you it has been personal - you sought me out from the beginning; you were gonna come onto this forum and "bust my chops", weren't you?


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-17-2002).]

[gvox]

BLAH BLAH BLAH...hey 80s, why do you so conveniently ignore when someone apologizes to you, but keep account of the injury with pithy quotes? I'll say it again, I was encouraging you not to get so worked up, and you do, and you still are. YOU responded to that with 'oohh you are such a mystery, how can you claim to be Christian' etc etc blah blah (man your existence is pathetic if you have time to go searching for quotes). Now you call me a hypocrite!! I love it, any other names you'd like to call me? Here's one that more aptly fits you: SELF-RIGHTEOUS JERK.

I didn't have to wait for you to say those things specifically, I saw you coming a mile away. I didn't target you, you repeatedly told the group that anybody who denied the deity of Christ is a false Christian. As if you are some authority on what a true Christian is. It doesnt take a genius to see that you were aiming that comment squarely at me. I grew up with 'christians' of your ilk for the first 20 years of my life and I know more about your beliefs than you think.

Anyways, see if you can resist quoting my entire post again without addressing any of it specifically (damn that is SO annoying) and answer the questions I posed earlier. What of YOUR intolerance? What will happen to me on judgement day if I dont believe as you? Or maybe you don't want the group to see just how intolerant your religion is?

Im done with you, and you should be with me. Youre preaching to the converted. Train your sites on the atheists and the 'pagans', OK? I AM saved, regardless of your opinion. Honestly, I do believe that you could have recieved direction from God. I just refused to acknowledge it because you refused to acknowledge that I could be saved. Tell you what: you admit the possibility that I am saved and I'll admit the possibility that God could have spoken to you.

As I mentioned to you in another post that you ignored, I'm glad that your faith is so strong and rooted. May it bode you well in the final analysis when and if Jesus' evaluation of us is done based on exactly how we believed.

Gabriel

'religion is what's left when God leaves the room' - Bono

[DrTeeth]

I was wondering 80s, are you just as fanatic in defending your faith in real life as you are here?

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by DrTeeth:
I was wondering 80s, are you just as fanatic in defending your faith in real life as you are here?

Yes, I am. It's the most important thing in my life. Therefore, when someone says that "This or that miracles didn't happen to me", even though they don't know me, it chaps my hide. Or, when they say that Jesus didn't claim to be God, when he most certainly did, I feel like I have a duty to correct them. But you know, Dr Teeth, your question to me has made me think of something I never thought of before. There are a hodge podge of different ideas in this forum. You and I have had our disagreements for sure. In real life, the people I have these discussions know me, and we're not as apt to get in heated discussions. However, in this forum no one knows me personally, so why do i feel it is my duty to make them see things the way I do? I believe 100% that Christ is God, but really, what should be my approach - should I argue them to death, or pray that they will see the truth? I think I should have been doing the latter. Jesus himself didn't engage in the back and forth heated arguments that I have been participating in. I should not have been engaging in this tit for tat discussion. And I apologize.
Thanks, Dr. Teeth. I bet you didn't know that by writing your question, you would convict me of my wrongdoing. But you did, and I thank you for that.

[80sU2isBest]

gabrielvox, you misquoted me. I didn't say "how can you claim to be a Christian". I said the following two things, which (whether you believe it or not) were not assuming anything...they were honest questions:

1)"you claim to be a Christian, and yet in that same thread, you raked me over the coals for being offended by an article insulting Christianity."

2)"How can you be a Christian and not believe in miracles?"

But, you're right that you apologized, and you're right that I ignored. I hate it when I apologize to people and they keep bringing the wrong back up. I certainly don't want to do that, and I apologize. I'm glad Christ doesn't keep bringing up things I have done that have wronged him.

I realized something when I was writing my response to Dr Teeth, so please read that as well as what I am about to say here. I wholeheartedly believe that a belief in the deity of Christ is absolutely necessary to be saved, and I also believe that you made many wrong assumptions about me and accusations toward me, but I should not have continued on in this debate. It just gets ugly, and defeats what should be my purpose of spreading the Gospel. I believe I have sinned in much of my attitude toward you. I ask God and you to forgive me.

[gvox]

I have a scripture for you to read 80s, but out of a wish not to embarrass you any further I will simply name it and you can read it in private: Matthew 6, vs 1 thru 7.

On that basis, because you once more used your apology as a chance to restate your belief that I am not saved, and because you have obstinately refused to acknowledge the 'bigger' point of everything that I have said to you, your apology is not accepted.


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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-17-2002).]

[zooropa16]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
I say:
I believe in Dinosaurs. Many scientists believe that dinosaurs existed at the same time as man. The Bible even speaks about a "leviathan", which many Biblical scholars believe was a ginat sea-creature (a dinosaur). Even if Dinosaurs existed before man, that would not prove the Bible wrong. the Bible itself says that animal was created before man. There are a lot of Biblical scholars who believe that God may have created life on this plnet in stages, which is not really contradictory to the Bible's account of 7 days, as the Bible does say that a day to the Lord "is as 1000 years".

80's. I realize I'm a little late with this. I found your 'evidence' interesting even though I don't think it has much weight behind it, but, to each their own. One more little question, in the above quote you mention Gods "timetable" so to speak. Does this mean that the Earth is only 7000 years old? Science has surely disproven that. Please clarify.

P.S. This thread kinda went nuts after I left! Jeez!!!

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Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
I have a scripture for you to read 80s, but out of a wish not to embarrass you any further I will simply name it and you can read it in private: Matthew 6, vs 1 thru 7.
On that basis, because you once more used your apology as a chance to restate your belief that I am not saved, and because you have obstinately refused to acknowledge the 'bigger' point of everything that I have said to you, your apology is not accepted.

I have no idea why you posted Matthew 6:1-7 to me. That pasage is about not doing your good deeds publicly, for a show, or praying publicly, for a show. If I could have apologized to you privately, I would have. I can't, so I apologized publicly.
My apology was sincere. Weren't you upset at my wrong behavior? I realized I was behaving badly, so I apologized. The only reason I restated what I believed is because I wanted to make it clear that my apology did not entail me changing my mind on that belief. I will never believe differently than that.

I have 2 questions that I would honestly like you to think about now;
1)could it be that what you're bothered by is not really the way I stated what I believe, but what I believe itself? By your denial of my apology, that's how it seems. Well, I won't apologize for what I believe.
2)I offered my apology honestly and sincerely. Certainly it was an honest apology - if I wasn't being sincere, why would I apologize at all? I don't know you personally; I had nothing to gain. At this point, it's up to you. It's not going to hurt me if you do not forgive me. Please remember, however, that Christ said to forgive as his Father forgives us.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by zooropa16:
80's. I realize I'm a little late with this. I found your 'evidence' interesting even though I don't think it has much weight behind it, but, to each their own. One more little question, in the above quote you mention Gods "timetable" so to speak. Does this mean that the Earth is only 7000 years old? Science has surely disproven that. Please clarify.

Hi, when I speak of God's timetable, I guess I'm saying that since God stands outside of time, that he has put time in motion, and his timing is not as ours. Do I hold firmly to the believe that the world is only 6000 or 7000 years? No, that is not one of th important beliefs. If I found out today that it was 150% positive that the world was billions of years old, it wouldn't bother me. However, I do think it's possible that the world is only 7000 years old, as I believe in catastrophism rather than uniformitarianism.

[gvox]

1) ahh...forget it.

Hey 80s, go to hell. LOL...

Don't you have an off button or something?



[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-18-2002).]

[The_Sweetest_Thing]

All I ever wanted was to ask a question - I grew up in a very strict Catholic community, but take science and was confused by conflicting beliefs.

Thank you Melon. Your words were wonderful and helpful. May I use one of your quotes as my signiture?

80sU2 - I ahve one question only: You sadi that God does good and the devil equal. Is God less powerful then the devil? WHy do such bad things happen?

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:

80sU2 - I ahve one question only: You sadi that God does good and the devil equal. Is God less powerful then the devil? WHy do such bad things happen?

Nope, I never said the Devil is equal to God. I said that God does good, and that the Devil does bad, but I never said tehy are equal. God is the all-powerful Lord. Satan is a created being, full of evil and his power is nothing compared to God.
Bad things happen because:
1)Because of sin. Man has free will to make whatever choices he pleases.
2)we live in a fallen world, full of disease and sickness - it is a result of teh first sin. "Bad luck" (ie: hard times) falls on both the wicked and the good. It's just the nature of life on this planet.

[doctorwho]

I'm joining this conversation late, but hopefully, you all can accept one more opinion.

I'm a scientist. I have studied science in some form for most of my life and have been involved in professional scientific research and development for the past 16 years.

And in all of this time, I can say one thing without doubt: the more I learn about this world the more convinced I am that God exists.

This may contradict the stereotype of scientists. That is, most people feel that scientists are atheists or agnostic. This stereotype is not without its truths (as all stereotypes are). In some cases, the more a scientist learns, the less he/she believes in the concept of an "all-powerful God" who created the world.

However, in my personal world, just the reverse is true. Furthermore, I know of several very prestigious scientists who also strongly believe in God. And I believe they share my thinking - that the more they learn, the more convinced they are there is a God.

For me, the "proof" that God exists came as a result of my studies. I was utterly fascinated at the level of intracacy and design required for life. It is mind-boggling when one realized that all of these laws of physics and elements of chemistry came together to form the biology we know today. In other words, I just cannot accept that the life we know on this world all just happened by chance.

Some argue that perhaps aliens seeded this planet. I can accept this argument. Again, when I look at the level of detail involved in DNA and proteins and how this translates to functioning organs and ultimately life, I can very easily accept that our world was designed or engineered by another.

And there are so many possibilities. Perhaps an alien race planted the initial seeds that took a lifeless rock and ultimately brought about bacteria, plants, insects, dinosaurs, and finally mammals. Alternatively, perhaps our world was designed for dinosaurs, but an alien race, wanting to seed another world in their image, eliminated the dinosaurs so that mammals could dominate the planet. After all, dinosaurs rulled this earth for several hundred million years - mankind has only existed for several hundred thousand years.

Of course, then there's the big question. Even if an alien race was responsible for life on this planet, what and who created that alien race?

But let's get even simpler than this. Let's break everything down to the simplest smallest particle there is - perhaps all God did was create this particle and then set everything in motion. That was God's only role - to create that little particle and then set the laws for the universe to form. But what laws those were! And that particle clearly was a mighty powerful one!

All of this said, all of these theories stated, one question constantly remains: what created God? If God created this world, what created God? If aliens created this world, that's great, but what created the aliens? And if God created the aliens, then that goes back to the original question - what created God?

But alas, that is the mystery of faith. All religions have this "rule." Man may be able to explain how he was created, how the earth was created, how the heavens were created - but man cannot explain how it all began, and perhaps more importantly, why it began. Why were certain laws of physics put into place? What if different laws existed? Why have any laws at all? What's the purpose in creating all of this? And this is where faith must play a role. Either you accept this element of faith and that there is a greater purpose, or you believe that all of this just happened by chance and that when you die, life ceases to exist.

Most people believe in the notion of God. Some do just to be on the "safe side." That is, if God does exist, far better to have faith in Him now on earth than risk an eternity in some sort of "hell" because one chose not to believe in God. However, I feel that most people believe in a higher power because of all the questions I raised above - what or who really created this vast universe, and why?

But then there's even a bigger question. Assuming there is a God (and I do believe there is), does God interact with humans daily? Does He save some while letting others die?

My answer to these questions is "yes."

The tragedy of Sep. 11th will never be forgotten. But let's step back a moment. How many plants die each day due to natural causes or fire or being eaten or destroyed? How many animals die each day from natural causes or fire or being eaten or destroyed? How many people die each day from natural causes or fire or being destroyed? Death is a constant.

I don't believe in destiny, per se. I do believe we have a series of choices presented to us every day. The choices we make, though, do determine our destiny. For example, there is a young lady who was on her way to her art studio in the Twin Towers on Sep. 11th. She forgot a book at home and returned to retrieve it, risking being late. This decision saved her life. Had she chosen to disregard the book, she might not have been alive today.

The people that died on Sep. 11th made a decision to be in a certain place at a certain time, as sad and unfortunate as it was for them. In other words, based on the decisions they made, it was their time to leave this world and enter God's.

However, God did see fit not to have everyone die that day. Some were allowed to survive. Some had things they had yet to accomplish on this earth. And I feel this is statement is the true reason for our existence.

Do any of you feel you have a greater purpose on this planet? I have felt this way - I have felt this way for a while. And I know now that I am now accomplishing that purpose. It was a calling - just as a priest might feel a calling to serve God. My calling wasn't for the ministry, though, rather for science. I am not the brightest scientist, but one does not need to be the best or the brightest to still have a powerful impact.

Just as I know that I am doing God's will (or so I hope and pray that I am), I also know that my work here is not yet complete. When it is, I may be called away. I may be one of those people that might make a decision that ends my life. Again, it is the mystery of faith.

Every one of us probably has a story to tell of how God or at least one of His angels interacted with us. I'm sure God has sent His angels to me many times - but the one time I that I feel was the most obvious occurred when I was a young man of 18/19. I won't go into the story here, other than to say that a person appeared suddenly when I needed someone the most (to help pull my car out of a ditch). Then, when I went to thank the person, he was "gone." The fact that someone helped me the very second I needed it and was then just "gone" strongly suggests God was watching me that day - in some capacity.

Perhaps God, Himself, doesn't interact with us on a day to day basis - perhaps this is why there are such things as angels. Again, this is an element of faith. But all I can say is, I do believe in God, I do not think that science and religion have to clash, and I do believe God can and does interact with us in some capacity on a daily basis.