God and Man/Man and God - Questions

[melon]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
As for the part of the Bible that IS metaphorical, I don't always know why He related it that way. I do know that God works in mysterious ways and that his ways are not our own.

The pursuit of knowledge and goodness is more satisfying than actually having it. Plus, ultimately, I don't think there is just "one" answer to apply to everyone. I think we are all here for different purposes.

Melon

------------------
"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

[speedracer]

Originally posted by melon:
Sir Francis Crick also believed we originated from aliens, i.e., transplanted from an existing civilization on another planet, not from God.

This point is worth fleshing out. If I recall correctly, the reason Dr. Crick believed this was because very few of the many different "transitional fossils" needed to establish an evolutionary link between humans and other life forms have been found. To oversimplify the point, it looks like humans originated out of nowhere, given the current state of the fossil record.

It's certainly possible that many of these transitional forms may be found, or that some convincing explanation may be given as to why they do not exist, but don't hold your breath.

[RufusYoungblood]

12.5 years ago, my (religous - believed in god - was confirmed) 19 year old sister was crushed and killed by a boat which came off a trailer which had detached from a passing car.

Fuck-you very much, 'god'

No offence 80s, but why did you deserve these 'miracles' ahead of her?

[gvox]

That's what makes a belief in God such a hard sell...people who attribute things to God. God didn't save 80s ass anymore than he saved that WTC survivor that walked out of a building that 2000+ people perished in...or were those people hopeless cases in His eyes? Cmon!

God created the universe, man and life as we know it. There is no evidence to disprove this, plenty of evidence that points to a highly intelligent design beyond even our comprehension, and the oldest book on earth tells us so. Maybe not scientifically enough for the skeptic evolutionists, but the bible wasn't intended to be a science book.

Somewhere along the way, man re-created God into his own image: tiny, selfish, greedy, pathetic.


Gabriel

------------------
"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-15-2002).]

[CannibalisticArtist]

you have to realise that if God did exist then God would be in control of everything, good and evil. after all, God made the devil, the epitome of all evil.
even if you believe in God, you don't have to love God, just like you don't have to follow your leader. God would be just another entity, that you could choose to love/hate depending on your feelings towards God.

[This message has been edited by CannibalisticArtist (edited 04-16-2002).]

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by RufusYoungblood:
12.5 years ago, my (religous - believed in god - was confirmed) 19 year old sister was crushed and killed by a boat which came off a trailer which had detached from a passing car.
Fuck-you very much, 'god'
No offence 80s, but why did you deserve these 'miracles' ahead of her?

I didn't "deserve" those miracles anymore than your sister. In fact, I have three times in my life where I would have asked for a miracle but didn't get them. Would you like to hear them?
My brother was also killed in a car wreck. At the age of 31. He had a wife and two young children. But I'm not angry at God for that. I know that God did not cause that accident.
Less than a year later, my son died, 8 hours after birth. But I'm not angry at god for that.
3 years later, my father died (4 years after the miracle). But I am not angry at God for that.
Why are you angry at God because he gives some people miracles? When I hear about other people who have been miraculously saved in a car accident, I don't curse God for saving them but not my brother. I rejoice, and praise God for saving someone's life.
Just as I rejoiced when God saved my dad and when he whispered in my ear to stop at the light.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
That's what makes a belief in God such a hard sell...people who attribute things to God. God didn't save 80s ass anymore than he saved that WTC survivor that walked out of a building that 2000+ people perished in...or were those people hopeless cases in His eyes? Cmon!
God created the universe, man and life as we know it. There is no evidence to disprove this, plenty of evidence that points to a highly intelligent design beyond even our comprehension, and the oldest book on earth tells us so. Maybe not scientifically enough for the skeptic evolutionists, but the bible wasn't intended to be a science book.
Somewhere along the way, man re-created God into his own image: tiny, selfish, greedy, pathetic.
Gabriel

You know, you are a mystery to me. In another thread, you claim to be a Christian, and yet in that same thread, you raked me over the coals for being offended by an article insulting Christianity. Now, you appear to be claiming that God doesn't work miracles. How can you be a Christian and not believes in miracles? Have you read the Gospels at all?

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by melon:
The pursuit of knowledge and goodness is more satisfying than actually having it. Plus, ultimately, I don't think there is just "one" answer to apply to everyone. I think we are all here for different purposes.
Melon

Very good, Melon. Thanks.

[gvox]

you raked me over the coals for being offended by an article insulting Christianity. Now, you appear to be claiming that God doesn't work miracles. How can you be a Christian and not believes in miracles? Have you read the Gospels at all? [/B]

First off, please accept my apologies if you felt that I raked you over the coals. That was completely not my intent, if you will recall I also raised questions on whether the piece that offended you so much should have been posted at all. I was simply stating that you seemed to get overwrought about your faith or other's inability to share it. It's just my opinion, but even in your response you are demonstrating that same trait. I never claimed that I didn't believe in miracles, but I doubted that you have experienced one. While your experiences touched me as very being very dear to you, they didn't strike me as directly miraculous by God's hand. Now, that doesn't make my faith any weaker or less than acceptable to God. Again, I don't know you that well at all, but it seems that you are unable to tolerate someone who believes, but maybe a bit differently from you, and that is troubling. That type of intolerance is the root of 99% of the problems in the world as it relates to religion. Where my ancestors come from, they're still fighting, historically and sometimes even still very violently, over which brand of Christianity is the best.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but for someone who doesn't like offensive posts, you border on perpetuating this your own self. Have I not read the Gospels? Is this supposed to be an earnest sincere question or an insult? If you have read my other threads you will see that clearly I have.

In the end, though, its just an opinion that I am expressing. I don't claim to have a handle on absolute truth any more than any other Christian should.

Gabriel



------------------
"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
I was simply stating that you seemed to get overwrought about your faith or other's inability to share it. It's just my opinion, but even in your response you are demonstrating that same trait. I never claimed that I didn't believe in miracles, but I doubted that you have experienced one. While your experiences touched me as very being very dear to you, they didn't strike me as directly miraculous by God's hand. Now, that doesn't make my faith any weaker or less than acceptable to God. Again, I don't know you that well at all, but it seems that you are unable to tolerate someone who believes, but maybe a bit differently from you, and that is troubling. That type of intolerance is the root of 99% of the problems in the world as it relates to religion. Please don't take this the wrong way, but for someone who doesn't like offensive posts, you border on perpetuating this your own self. Have I not read the Gospels? Is this supposed to be an earnest sincere question or an insult? If you have read my other threads you will see that clearly I have.

The reason I asked you had you read the Gospels is because the Gospel is full of miracles. Your response to my "miracles" was not one of "how am I supposed to know that those things really happened?" Nope, your response was one that flat-out said that what happened in my life were not miracles. You left no room for any question about that. Do I need to remind you that you said:

"That's what makes a belief in God such a hard sell...people who attribute things to God. God didn't save 80s ass anymore than he saved that WTC survivor that walked out of a building that 2000+ people perished in...or were those people hopeless cases in His eyes? Cmon!"

So, I ask you...if you believe that God does indeed work miracles, why is it hard for you to accept that teh things that happened in my life are miracles? How would you know? And how else would you explain the fact that my father was suddenly healed, or that someone told me to stop the car when there was no real reason to stop the car? Your assuredness that the miracled didn't happen in my life, when you did not come up with any possible other explanations for what happened, was waht led me to believe you don't believe in miracles. And that is why I asked if yo had read the Gospels.
Also, you keep saying implying that I don't tolerate other people's beliefs. That just simply is not true, not true at all. What I do is defend my own faith when it is being attacked? Why is that wrong? You got all your opinion about me from reading my posts for an hour straight (those were your words, not mine), and all of a sudden you are an expert on me. How nice.



[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-16-2002).]

[gvox]

80s, and this is the last time I will respond to this so if it makes you feel better you can have the last word:

I have too experienced near misses with death, in fact more than once. A car that I was driving spinning out of control at 140 kph for a distance of half a km finally coming to rest immediately parallel up against a concrete guardrail, barely touching it. Did I believe that God's spirit reached out and stopped my car? No. Did I get out of my car and get down on my knees and thank God that I was still alive? You'd better believe it!

It has been easy to get to know you over a short time 80s. You are easily one of the more prolific posters, at least on Free Your Mind, and by and large I have enjoyed alot of your thoughts. I just think you should avoid the frustration that seems clearly evident when people don't necessarily believe as you do.

Again, just my opinion...maybe the real case is that people aren't necessarily deliberately attacking your faith, they are just posting their opinions, just as you do?

Gabriel


------------------
"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
80s, and this is the last time I will respond to this so if it makes you feel better you can have the last word:

I have too experienced near misses with death, in fact more than once. A car that I was driving spinning out of control at 140 kph for a distance of half a km finally coming to rest immediately parallel up against a concrete guardrail, barely touching it. Did I believe that God's spirit reached out and stopped my car? No. Did I get out of my car and get down on my knees and thank God that I was still alive? You'd better believe it!

I dion't care if it's the last word or not. feel free to respond; in fact, I sure wish you would, because I would like you to respond to the following:

Your situation was totally different than mine, although I believe your situation might just be a miracle, also. Here's the difference...my situation doesn't involving actually having the accident and somehow surviving miraculously. I received DIRECT instruction to stop the car even though there was no one else in the car, and even though it appeared that everything was proceeding as usual. How do you not see a miracle in that?

[RufusYoungblood]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
I didn't "deserve" those miracles anymore than your sister. In fact, I have three times in my life where I would have asked for a miracle but didn't get them. Would you like to hear them?
My brother was also killed in a car wreck. At the age of 31. He had a wife and two young children. But I'm not angry at God for that. I know that God did not cause that accident.
Less than a year later, my son died, 8 hours after birth. But I'm not angry at god for that.
3 years later, my father died (4 years after the miracle). But I am not angry at God for that.
Why are you angry at God because he gives some people miracles? When I hear about other people who have been miraculously saved in a car accident, I don't curse God for saving them but not my brother. I rejoice, and praise God for saving someone's life.
Just as I rejoiced when God saved my dad and when he whispered in my ear to stop at the light.

So it's god's work when something god happens, but he's not involved when bad things happens? That's just silly. You're picking and choosing when he's involved and when he's not, to suit your beliefs.

Riddle me this, why did he save you and not your brother? No need to answer, it's a stupid question, without an answer. I just think the whole 'god saved' me stuff it complete nonsense.

I was driving home drunk one night, and someone ran a red light and missed me by a few feet. I'm still here, and my sister is not. If anyone deserved to buy it, it was me, not her. God? - I think not.

Make your argument that God is the creator and that man is the one fucking things up, but don't give me that 'God is watching' bullshit.

[gvox]

Well, 80s, I can give you the answer, but you will find a way to take offense to it, this much I do know about you already.

Another time I almost died was when a 78 Caprice Classic boat of a car broadsided me when I was 19, driving a pop can tin import. At the last second I saw headlights, and something inside me told me to jump over the gear shift (I wasnt wearing a seat belt, why I still cant explain) to the passengers side. The whole left side of the car was crushed into the gear box, and my legs were trapped on the driver's side but my body was safe on the other side. I pulled my legs free, kicked out the back window and dragged myself out of my burning car (which would later explode) onto the ground. When the police arrived they asked where the driver was, and I raised my hand. He didn't believe me until a witness said it was me, that's how mangled the car was. I had not a scratch except for where breaking the window had scraped my shins, and I walked away and went home. The next morning I tried to walk and fell and couldn't walk again for 2 months. Do I think God whispered in my ear, telling me to move across the car? I'd like to think it was a little bit of last second survival instinct. Did God strengthen my legs to get me home that night? Maybe, but there is a little thing called adrenaline that works wonders sometimes too.

You heard something tell you that you should stop your car. You heard something tell you that the right thing to do was pray to God, which by the way, is of course the right thing to do in a situation like that. Your opinion is that God spoke to you. My opinion is that God didn't speak to you. You may have heard a voice, but I doubt it was God. There are people that you can discuss voices in your head with though...JOKE!!! :P

I'm curious to know, however, does God also speak to you at times when you aren't facing a life or death crisis? Has he given you his thoughts on the whole Israeli/Palestinian thing? I mean, typically alot of the times we read in the bible where God actually spoke to a human being were usually in dreams, with alot of prophecy and commandments being the main topics..and that's the type of conversations with God that I believe in.

Gabriel


------------------
"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by RufusYoungblood:

(1)So it's god's work when something god happens, but he's not involved when bad things happens? That's just silly. You're picking and choosing when he's involved and when he's not, to suit your beliefs.
I was driving home drunk one night, and someone ran a red light and missed me by a few feet. I'm still here, and my sister is not. If anyone deserved to buy it, it was me, not her. God? - I think not.
(2)Make your argument that God is the creator and that man is the one fucking things up, but don't give me that 'God is watching' bullshit.

I'll answer by number:

(1)Yes, when something good happens, it is often God interceding. However, when something bad happens, it cannot be blamed on God. God does good. Devil does bad. And sometimes bad things happen to good people. Man has free will and often does bad, also. But God does never do bad. He often allows bad things to happen, but he doesn't cause them. As simple as that sounds, it's the truth. And it's not "picking and choosing" to suit my beliefs - it's in the Bible.

(2)God is not only watching, but he takes an active role in our lives, if you'll let him. He often does it whether we let him or not. Yes, man does screw things up, because we have free will. But God does often pull our fat out of the fryer, whether we deserve it or not.

Some things do happen by chance. But not all things. I don't know why your sister died in a car accident. I don't know why my brother did. Perhaps there was no reason for eaither of those deaths. Surely, if you felt as bad as I did (which I am sure you did), it devastated you. But I am as sure as a man can be (without actually getting a verbal answer from God) that God caused the accident of neither my brother nor your sister.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
Well, 80s, I can give you the answer, but you will find a way to take offense to it, this much I do know about you already.

Another time I almost died was when a 78 Caprice Classic boat of a car broadsided me when I was 19, driving a pop can tin import. At the last second I saw headlights, and something inside me told me to jump over the gear shift (I wasnt wearing a seat belt, why I still cant explain) to the passengers side. The whole left side of the car was crushed into the gear box, and my legs were trapped on the driver's side but my body was safe on the other side. I pulled my legs free, kicked out the back window and dragged myself out of my burning car (which would later explode) onto the ground. When the police arrived they asked where the driver was, and I raised my hand. He didn't believe me until a witness said it was me, that's how mangled the car was. I had not a scratch except for where breaking the window had scraped my shins, and I walked away and went home. The next morning I tried to walk and fell and couldn't walk again for 2 months. Do I think God whispered in my ear, telling me to move across the car? I'd like to think it was a little bit of last second survival instinct. Did God strengthen my legs to get me home that night? Maybe, but there is a little thing called adrenaline that works wonders sometimes too.

You heard something tell you that you should stop your car. You heard something tell you that the right thing to do was pray to God, which by the way, is of course the right thing to do in a situation like that. Your opinion is that God spoke to you. My opinion is that God didn't speak to you. You may have heard a voice, but I doubt it was God. There are people that you can discuss voices in your head with though...JOKE!!! :P

I'm curious to know, however, does God also speak to you at times when you aren't facing a life or death crisis? Has he given you his thoughts on the whole Israeli/Palestinian thing? I mean, typically alot of the times we read in the bible where God actually spoke to a human being were usually in dreams, with alot of prophecy and commandments being the main topics..and that's the type of conversations with God that I believe in.
Gabriel

Gabriel, I don't take offense at what you wrote. But that accident you describe is STILL nothing like mine. You said you saw headlights and something told you to jump over the gear shift. That may have been a miracle, I don't know. But there is still a big difference in our situations. If you wanted to make the case that your situation was not a miracle, that would be more plausible, because you said something told you to jump over the gearshift AFTER you saw the headlights. The headlights told you "danger!", so the something that told you to jump may have well been a natural instinct to survive (or it may have well been God). But in my situation, there was no indicator that anything was wrong whatsoever, so that can not be boiled down to survival instinct. As I relayed in my "miracle" story, I didn't get this message just once. It argued with my mind, which based on what my eyes were seeing, was telling me everything was okay. This happened over the span of anywhere from 5 to 15 seconds. This was not a split second thing. One of the main points that makes it such an odd occurrence and miraculous is taht I was receiving strong instruction that was completely contrary with what I could see happening with mine own eyes, but after obeying the instruction, I saw that if I had not obeyed , I would be dead.
And yes, I believe God has given me dreams before. Not often, but yes he has spoken to me in thet way before.
Look, I'm not saying that God constantly interacts in my life in these ways all the time. All I'm telling you is that they did happen. You can not say they were not miracles because you were not there. Oh but I forgot, you know everything about me, based on the posts you read of mine for an hour straight.

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:

Keep us posted on the next time God speaks to you, I'd love to hear whats on His mind recently. Are you some sort of prophet or something? What a rare privilege. If I were you, I wouldnt be wasting my time on an internet bulletin board, I'd be forming my own church, what with my direct line to God and all...

Gabriel, 80sU2 kind of has a point about being tolerant about what others believe. Your sarcastic comment above comes across as mainly just being mean. I'd recommend you listen to some of your own advice, and not get too worked up about this. Clearly you believe in God. It may be your opinion that in this instance he didn't involve himself in any way with 80sU2. Ok. That's fair. 80sU2 believes otherwise. If you really felt a need to disagree with him about this, I think you could have expressed your opinion in a much less abrasive way.

[melon]

On the issue of God with "good" and "bad" circumstances:

I think we often believe that God simply is here to please us, and, honestly, I wish it were true as well. However, "bad" is just as much a part of the growth of human experience as "goodness."

For instance, I was depressed for well over 10 years of my life (and still dealing somewhat with it). Seeing that I'm only 21, I do feel somewhat that my youth was totally robbed from me. However, what I learned during those 10 years I have found invaluable; things I can guarantee I'd never have learned unless I had been depressed.

Certainly, I often wish my life had been "perfect," but when faced with hard situations, you often learn something that you would never have learned otherwise. Unfortunately, we've learned some especially harsh lessons in the last century.

Melon

------------------
"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

[CannibalisticArtist]

Originally posted by CannibalisticArtist:
you have to realise that if God did exist then God would be in control of everything, good and evil. after all, God made the devil, the epitome of all evil.
even if you believe in God, you don't have to love God, just like you don't have to follow your leader. God would be just another entity, that you could choose to love/hate depending on your feelings towards God.

can i quote myself again?

[speedracer]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:

Just for the interest of other more reasonable people, there have been numerous studies that have shown that most "encounters" with God are completely explainable psychological phenomena.

Gabriel

References? Consider your bluff called.