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Old 02-21-2009, 11:55 AM   #1
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Go Obama!

Wow, I'm digging it!

Stimulus tax savings analyzed by household - Feb. 21, 2009

A study of the recovery plan shows most households will qualify for a tax break. Boost for some could be worth several hundred to several thousand dollars.


TAX SAVINGS
How households may fare under the economic recovery plan.
Income Avg. tax savings Drop in tax bite
Under $19K $476 -95%
$19K-$38K $652 -22%
$38K-$66K $781 -9%
$66K-$112K $1,301 -7.5%
$112K-$161K $2,549 -8.3%
$161K-$227K $3,883 -8.3%
$227K-$603K $5,133 -5.7%
$2.8M plus $39,350 -1.4%

Yay!
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:12 PM   #2
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Tax cuts in addition to stimulus packages? Where does all this money come from?
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Old 02-21-2009, 04:39 PM   #3
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Tax cuts in addition to stimulus packages? Where does all this money come from?
"President Obama is putting the finishing touches on an ambitious first budget that seeks to cut the federal deficit in half over the next four years, primarily by raising taxes on business and the wealthy and by slashing spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, administration officials said."
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Old 02-21-2009, 04:39 PM   #4
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China loan.
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Old 02-21-2009, 06:34 PM   #5
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All this debt is a little present for the under 50's
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Old 02-21-2009, 07:14 PM   #6
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Old 02-21-2009, 07:35 PM   #7
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All this debt is a little present for the under 50's
I'm close enough to 50 (and have no kids) that I think it's a great idea.
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Old 02-21-2009, 08:05 PM   #8
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All this debt is a little present for the under 50's
Taxes will increase soon enough that the same generation will have to start paying it back. There's no free lunch. That's for sure.
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Old 02-21-2009, 08:35 PM   #9
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Obama looks like continuing in Bush's vein, they are as bad as each other.
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Old 02-21-2009, 08:42 PM   #10
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Taxes will increase soon enough that the same generation will have to start paying it back. There's no free lunch. That's for sure.
Spoilsport.
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Old 02-22-2009, 01:15 AM   #11
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"Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have.”


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Christ on crutches. For better or for worse, the kind of state you would favour stopped being even remotely viable in the early 19th century. Mid 19th century at latest.

As for everyone else, what the fuck is supposed to be done? Financeguy's on here every second day telling us (correctly enough I think) that major doom is spreading around the globe. But a stimulus package... nooo, heaven forbid, that would be teh debt.

Although I favour saving money, the thing is: if everyone did as I do, the collapse would be swifter, deeper and sooner. As it is, I've no idea what will happen.

It certainly is not the fault of governments that a bunch of financial institutions have all the finesse of sweat-slicked high stakes gamblers at 4 in the morning. Or to clarify, it may be the fault of poor or ill-considered regulatory frameworks... but there you have it, folks. The bankers are little children, who cannot exercise any good judgement on their own behalf. Who have no responsibility for their own actions. But what the fuck, no stimulus packages, that would be teh debt.


....

or is it, that it's all ok if the debt is private? Is that it? Because that's really not so, and we're finding that out now.
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:37 AM   #12
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Christ on crutches.
Stop helping God across the street like a little old lady.



I like your line better, Kieran.

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...all the finesse of sweat-slicked high stakes gamblers at 4 in the morning.
I'm sure those working closest to the stimulus package in government, finance and business feel exactly like this. The pressure in a no-win situation must be excruciating.

Putting money back in the hands of spenders and savers and creating productive, value-add jobs are crucial but I'm concerned that there isn't enough clarity in the stimulus plan around homeowners keeping a roof over their heads. Not because of a Wall St/Main St class struggle or wealth distribution scheme, mainly because that will minimize violence and crime from escalating out of control as unemployment gets worse before it gets better.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:15 AM   #13
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On a similar note, I saw an interesting video the other day that tried to artistically explain the clusterfuck that is the credit crisis:

The Crisis of Credit Visualized on Vimeo

I'd be interested on whether people think it is accurate.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:31 AM   #14
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Tax cuts in addition to stimulus packages? Where does all this money come from?
Debt.
Then again, that's what many think a government is supposed to do with a recession like this. Spend, invest and make sure capital is available. If consumers and companies aren't doing it, then the government has to keep the economy going.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:15 AM   #15
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I'd be interested on whether people think it is accurate.
It was an excellent description - visual always works for me.

Would be cool if similar videos are created for the cascading effect of the credit crunch on the real economy both domestic and global and also foreign debt. There is a monetary crisis that doesn't get talked about much but is very real.

Clear decisions can't be made based on sound judgement if people don't understand what is happening and why without resorting to blame, paranoia, denial and expecting the government to fix it and take care of them.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:28 PM   #16
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Obama is right to take on the very rich
They're paying far less of their incomes in taxes than average Americans.



By Chuck Collins and Sam Pizzigati (op-ed)
Christian Science Monitor, February 24



We've seen, in recent weeks, an outpouring of public outrage over the mega millions that keep flowing--despite the escalating economic meltdown--into the pockets of America's top bankers and corporate executives...The amount of money that goes into executive pockets is staggering. So is the amount that comes out of those pockets in taxes: precious little. America's super-rich are paying far less of their incomes in taxes than average Americans who punch time clocks. This is grossly unfair. The good news: Under Mr. Obama's new plan to cut the deficit in half, the very richest Americans will start paying something closer to their fair tax share.

It's been a while since they've done that. As recent IRS data show, these elites are paying less in taxes--much less--than their deep-pocket counterparts used to pay. In 2006, the 400 highest-income Americans together reported $105 billion in income, an average of $263 million each. Having trouble visualizing that? To pocket $263 million a year, you would have to take home over $60,000 an hour--and work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for an entire 12 months. Sounds tiring, doesn't it? But most of the top 400 make their fortunes buying and selling assets, everything from stocks and bonds to the exotic paper that helped inflate the housing bubble. Uncle Sam taxes income from those assets--whether that income be capital gains or dividends--at a much lower rate than income from work.

The current top tax rate on "ordinary" work income sits at 35%. But dividends and capital gains from the buying and selling of most assets face only a 15% top rate. That's why in 2006, America's top 400 paid just 17.2% of their $263 million average incomes in federal tax. Millions of middle-class American families, once you tally income and payroll taxes, pay far more of their incomes in tax. One particularly striking example from billionaire investor Warren Buffett: In 2006, he paid 17.7% of his income in total taxes. His secretary, who made $60,000, paid 30% of hers.

How did we end up with this sorry state of affairs? Lawmakers in Congress have spent the past several decades systematically slicing the tax rates on America's top income brackets. Their rationale? Lower taxes on the top, free up capital for investment, and boost productivity. In actual economic practice, those lower taxes have served instead to fuel speculation and increase budget deficits. For the ultrarich themselves, the tax savings have been nothing short of breathtaking. Back in 1955, America's top 400 paid more than 50% of their incomes in federal tax, almost triple the rate of today's top 400.

We can fix this. Obama just announced his plan to end the Bush administration's high-income tax cuts. This is an important step. We can insist, also, that lawmakers end the preferential treatment of dividends and capital gains. And we can raise the tax rate that kicks in when taxpayers start collecting more than $10 million and $20 million a year. Steps like these would help get our future in order. But what about the past--and all those windfalls the super-rich have been pocketing as our economy veered into the ditch? Are we going to have to watch these billions multiply, generation after generation, into a new American aristocracy of wealth?

Not if we save the estate tax, the only federal levy on grand accumulations of private wealth. The rich and their retainers have been trying to repeal the estate tax for 20 years now. They haven't succeeded, but they have slashed the tax rate on the fortunes the ultrawealthy leave their heirs. Congress is about to begin debating legislation that would freeze the estate tax at the current bargain-basement rate set by President Bush. We can't let that happen. More than ever, America needs its ultrarich to chip in more.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:59 PM   #17
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Hmmm, of the 240k or so of income we had last year, I paid about 40% of income taxes. After everything (retirements, social security, healthcare, etc... and such), I brought home aboout 8k per month. What is that x12? 96k? Hmm... Take mortgages out, 1 car payment, and some furniture, and of course food, and I'm at break even.

Yay America!
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:09 PM   #18
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Christ on crutches. For better or for worse, the kind of state you would favour stopped being even remotely viable in the early 19th century. Mid 19th century at latest.

As for everyone else, what the fuck is supposed to be done? Financeguy's on here every second day telling us (correctly enough I think) that major doom is spreading around the globe. But a stimulus package... nooo, heaven forbid, that would be teh debt.

Although I favour saving money, the thing is: if everyone did as I do, the collapse would be swifter, deeper and sooner. As it is, I've no idea what will happen.

It certainly is not the fault of governments that a bunch of financial institutions have all the finesse of sweat-slicked high stakes gamblers at 4 in the morning. Or to clarify, it may be the fault of poor or ill-considered regulatory frameworks... but there you have it, folks. The bankers are little children, who cannot exercise any good judgement on their own behalf. Who have no responsibility for their own actions. But what the fuck, no stimulus packages, that would be teh debt.
People believe, rightly or wrongly (mostly wrongly, in my view), that private enterprise has failed them in this financial crisis. It's obvious that there's going to be a huge shift back towards a Keynesian demand-management economic model - even though the theory is questionable.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:11 PM   #19
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Hmmm, of the 240k or so of income we had last year, I paid about 40% of income taxes. After everything (retirements, social security, healthcare, etc... and such), I brought home aboout 8k per month. What is that x12? 96k? Hmm... Take mortgages out, 1 car payment, and some furniture, and of course food, and I'm at break even.

Yay America!

Erhm, it's your choice to have that high a mortgage. And the other stuff. Anyone can live on around 20k a year. Many live on less.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:12 PM   #20
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Hmmm, of the 240k or so of income we had last year, I paid about 40% of income taxes. After everything (retirements, social security, healthcare, etc... and such), I brought home aboout 8k per month. What is that x12? 96k? Hmm... Take mortgages out, 1 car payment, and some furniture, and of course food, and I'm at break even.

Yay America!
I am not sure that in the current economic situation you're going to get a lot of sympathy for having a family income of about a quarter million dollars.
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