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Old 08-09-2009, 08:58 PM   #981
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I happen to agree with you. I don't even know what unAmerican means, it's some idiotic word bandied about by your politicians constantly.

I do think it's rather hilarious though, how up in arms you are about this. I don't recall you being upset when the right wing and neocons called everyone but them unAmerican and anti-American for the last 8 years. It's really, REALLY funny.
Exactamundo.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:02 PM   #982
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on the other hand, if the public option IS good enough to attract large numbers of people, provide good coverage, compete with the private sector and drive down the costs of healthcare, is that really such a terrible thing???
I think that would be ideal.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:17 PM   #983
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Most medical bankruptcies are more about protecting assets and one's home. In fact, 40% of medically related bankruptcies were filed by people who owed $5,000 or less in medical bills. $5000.
A $5000 medical bill would ruin me for sure. Maybe it's not a lot of money to you, but thats almost two months salary for me.

Is it wrong for these people to want to "protect their assests." I don't own home, but I have a car. Should I sell my car so that I can pay these medical bills? How then should I get to my job an hour and a half away?

And wait a second, if 40% of medical bankruptcies are filed by people who owed $5000 or less, what about the MAJORITY of bankruptcies--the other 60%?

Thanks for your thoughts on my questions. I can see why it's easier for so many of us to just take cheap shots at each other--it's a lot easier than doing the homework of really finding out what health care form would or should entail. I know I've realized there's a lot that both of us don't know/understand just from our little exchange.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:26 PM   #984
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Source?
NBC/WSJ- 42% say Obama's plan is a bad idea, 36% good idea
Quinnipiac- 52& disapprove, 39% approve
Plus, most polls show about 8 of 10 believing the plan would add to the deficit. And in fact, the idea of a public plan polls much better than what Obama is currently proposing. So at the absolute very least, the protesters are saying "Hey, you guys suck as salesmen. Get a better plan, and then maybe we'll listen."


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The youtube link I posted a couple pages back shows the result of some journalistic research into the background of one of these "concerned citizens" who claimed to not have any political motivation for showing up to the meeting and also claimed to have left the Republican party 2 years ago. She was the leader of the local chapter of the Republican Party, and also worked on the campaign for the Republican who lost to the Democratic congressman whose town hall meeting she was crashing. Check out the link again, there is ample evidence that more than just a few of these concerned citizens are acting on behalf of special interest groups:
Yes, I'm sure there are some people there because of external groups, but (and call me crazy), I get the feeling it's quite a minority. You'd be kidding yourself if you think groups like SEIU and ACORN spawn spontaneous protests. It's both sides.

Still, I fail to see how it's "un-Democratic" or un-American. I hope you think it's un-American the attacks that have been made by the left comparing the protesters to Nazis, brownshirts, political terrorists, and Tim McVeigh, too.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:28 PM   #985
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wait, is there something fundamentally wrong with an organized protest?
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:28 PM   #986
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I think it's hilarious how people are trying to call Obama fascist and are even bringing Hitler comparisons into the fold.
And there's also a congressman referencing "Brown Shirt tactics" at town halls....Really now...There's a few cranks in every crowd maybe, even in Congress.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:29 PM   #987
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Still, I fail to see how it's "un-Democratic" or un-American. I hope you think it's un-American the attacks that have been made by the left comparing the protesters to Nazis, brownshirts, political terrorists, and Tim McVeigh, too.
Any chance of some links?
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:36 PM   #988
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Any chance of some links?
Sorry.

Pelosi's "swastika" remark- RealClearPolitics - Video - Pelosi: Town Hall Protesters Are "Carrying Swastikas"

Washinton Post's "political terrorists" remark- washingtonpost.com

By poisoning the political well, they've given up any pretense of being the loyal opposition. They've become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems.

Congressman Brian Baird's "brownshirts" and Tim McVeigh remarks-

The Bellingham Herald / Politics Blog / GOP says Rep. Baird 'delusional' over 'brown shirt' comments

"What we're seeing right now is close to Brown Shirt tactics,"

Rep_ Brian Baird accuses protesters of driving people to violence like Timothy McVeigh | NowPublic Video Archives

"If people set out to disrupt town hall meetings, to intimidate people who sincerely want to discuss important serious issues, the first victim is the democracy itself. But beyond that, some of the rhetoric we're hearing is vaguely- not vaguely- eerily reminiscent of the kind of things that drove Tim Mcveigh to bomb the federal building in Oklahoma."
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:46 PM   #989
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Sorry.
Sorry for what?
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:49 PM   #990
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Sorry for what?
giving your mum a good bonk?
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:56 PM   #991
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That's the good news for your friend. As more people are purchasing health care directly prices would fall. Less paper and clerical work and competition with other providers for patients.
What evidence do you have of this? It doesn't happen now, why would it magically happen in the future?
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:03 PM   #992
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I think you may be taking this video out of context. She's not saying they are carrying swastikas, as if they were nazis, she's saying they are carrying signs equating Obama, Dems, universal healthcare to nazism(with swastikas on them). And yes this has been happening. It's just an ignoranant form of protest, just like those that would call Bush "hitler".

And the right is twisting her words nothing new.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:10 PM   #993
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I don't even know what unAmerican means,
Indeed. It also seems that many Americans don't even know what it means to be American anymore, nevermind unAmerican.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:17 PM   #994
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Can't wait to see what this materializes into tomorrow. Do these morons really think attacks like this will help their cause? It's truly baffling...


shall we trot out all the nasty words you had for anti-war protesters?
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:25 PM   #995
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Ok, to the conservatives:

HEALTH CARE IS A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT. WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS NOT WORKING.


Republicans are not offering any new plans or ideas, they are just yelling at the top of their lungs and stopping intelligent public discourse between people at town halls. Plus, there are much scarier things than the US Government.... insurance companies.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:27 PM   #996
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Republicans would point out that government run Medicaid and Medicare are bankrupting the entire country. How could expanding their role possibly be a good idea?

cutting to the chase, this is the real issue. health care costs are going to sky rocket, especially as life expectancy rockets into the 80s over the next 50 years.

it seems to me that the expansion of Medicad/Medicare-type programs, and increasing the role of government, is what is going to be needed precisely in order to save the American taxpayer and our proverbial, nostalgic "small business owner" as well as our corporations. there's no free market fix for this, and that's what the GOP doesn't seem to understand. it's not about generalities and catch phrases like "competition" and the "market" and other nonsense words like that -- the point has already been made that it's fine for specific products or drugs, not so fine for actually covering people.

where is this money going to come from is the big issue, and that's where i think the debate really lies. we're probably going to have a mix of public and private health care, much like most Western nations, and costs are going to go up and up and up.

so i say tax gasoline, tax marijuana, identify and track children at risk for obesity from the moment they enroll in Head Start, and raise the retirement age to 70.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:29 PM   #997
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Plus, there are much scarier things than the US Government.... insurance companies.


it seems to me that the profit motive is what actually makes care worse.

take a look at New Orleans.

gee, sorry you lost your house, but you had *storm* coverage, not *flood* coverage, and it was technically the *flood* that swept your house and grandmother away, so we don't have to pay out a damn cent.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:37 PM   #998
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take a look at New Orleans.

gee, sorry you lost your house, but you had *storm* coverage, not *flood* coverage, and it was technically the *flood* that swept your house and grandmother away, so we don't have to pay out a damn cent.
Not to play devils advocate here... but the government probably did a worse job in New Orelans than anyone else.... but this was of course the fault of our wonderful George W.

but seriously, I agree completely with you. The motive for profit does help for innovation in the free market but when you are dealing with human lives, profit has to take a back seat to humanity. This is why government needs to be involved either with more regulation or a public option.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:40 PM   #999
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Not to play devils advocate here... but the government probably did a worse job in New Orelans than anyone else.... but this was of course the fault of our wonderful George W.

in terms of the response, yes, but in terms of the aftermath, not as much. the insurance companies left everyone high and dry (ha) that they could.


i'm enjoying this discussion -- might it be moved to the Health Care thread?

i'm going to post an article there written by a former Bush white house speechwriter, and i think it's worth looking at.
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Old 08-09-2009, 11:29 PM   #1000
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it seems to me that the profit motive is what actually makes care worse.

take a look at New Orleans.

gee, sorry you lost your house, but you had *storm* coverage, not *flood* coverage, and it was technically the *flood* that swept your house and grandmother away, so we don't have to pay out a damn cent.
Ah yes, Katrina. The model for state, local and federal government efficiency and cost management.
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