Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

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phillyfan26

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That means talking about the actual issues.

Rules of this thread: No talk of experience. No talk of Obama being all about change and hope. No talk of supporters being insane.

Give real arguments.
 
Well, since we can't talk about experience, I guess we will talk about economic plans. I personally believe that Obama is just promising waaaay to much. The only way his plans are going to work is by raising taxes. We have got a big ass debt to pay down due to this war. How are we going to do that, pay for these GIGANTIC social programs and keep our economy growing while raising taxes? It can't happen. The nations wealthiest will not be able to pay for these programs alone. If our unemployment rate was really high, I would say, ok, put more people to work and that will put more money in the coffers, but our unemployment rate in the US is not out of control. I'm really not sure what Mccain has promised yet. One thing is for sure. Never believe a politician. :wink:
 
Abomb-baby said:
I'm really not sure what Mccain has promised yet.

Kind of hard to promise something when you admit you don't really understand the economy:

John McCain recently acknowledged, “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.” He added, however, “I’ve got Greenspan’s book.”

What a dumb, DUMB thing to say. Watch for it in every Dem ad this fall.
 
Abomb-baby said:
Well, since we can't talk about experience, I guess we will talk about economic plans. I personally believe that Obama is just promising waaaay to much. The only way his plans are going to work is by raising taxes.

Can you point to anything specifically that causes you to believe his economic plans are impossible to carry out? I'm just curious as to what exactly you dislike about them.
 
anitram said:


Kind of hard to promise something when you admit you don't really understand the economy:



What a dumb, DUMB thing to say. Watch for it in every Dem ad this fall.


I hadn't heard about that until it was mentioned during the debate last night. It reminded me of something Fred Thompson would've said.:|
 
While I don't agree with your argument, Abomb-baby, thank you for at least putting some substance into this forum.
 
Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

deep said:


How many presidential elections have you voted in?

That's not even a fair question. It would be impossible for him to have voted in any elections or to vote in this one, and you know it. That doesn't mean he can't pay attention to the political process and the important issues facing our country. The general election will be my first time voting, but I paid attention to the process and issues during the 04 election when I was 16. A large number of people that do vote don't even have the slightest grasp of the issues or the candidates and where they stand. They vote like they're picking "Most Popular" for their senior yearbooks.
 
Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

deep said:


How many presidential elections have you voted in?

Would it be fair if I asked you if senility were encroaching on you due to your age, and do you think said senility was impairing your ability to make sound judgements on who to vote for?

Come on Deep, you're better than that.
 
Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

U2isthebest said:
That's not even a fair question. It would be impossible for him to have voted in any elections or to vote in this one, and you know it.

I don't know it.

I am not sure of the ages of most of the posters in here. I do have some vague ideas.

A person can have wisdom at 15 and a person at 60 may not have much wisdom.

One advantage of living longer is that one can look back on decisions and evaluate what thinking lead to correct decisions and what thinking lead to incorrect decisions.

Hopefully I am not repeating my same mistakes over and over.

Each candidate is unique and presents certain advantages.

I only asked because I don't believe many people will go to the polls and not consider

experience. That will be one of the biggest factors people will consider.

To remove it from the discussion, makes the discussion not legitimate.

Experience does not always give one the advantage. If the election were between Obama and G W Bush. The Bush experience is a big disadvantage.
I would be campaigning for Obama.

And all the experience Bush Sr had did not prevent his lost to Clinton.

I certainly don't remember anyone saying you can't talk about experience in 1992 during the election between Bill Clinton and GHW Bush Sr. :shrug:



U2isthebest said:
They vote like they're picking "Most Popular" for their senior yearbooks.


We do seem to be having a kind of "American Idol" like phenomenon going on.

and that is working towards one candidate's advantage much more than the others.
 
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I suppose you don't have to worry about me, since I won't be old enough to go vote this November. :shrug:
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

deep said:


I don't know it.

I am not sure of the ages of most of the posters in here. I do have some vague ideas.

A person can have wisdom at 15 and a person at 60 may not have much wisdom.

One advantage of living longer is that one can look back on decisions and evaluate what thinking lead to correct decisions and what thinking lead to incorrect decisions.

Hopefully I am not repeating my same mistakes over and over.

Each candidate is unique and presents certain advantages.

I only asked because I don't believe many people will go to the polls and not consider

experience. That will be one of the biggest factors people will consider.

To remove it from the discussion, makes the discussion not legitimate.

Experience does always give one the advantage. If the election were between Obama and G W Bush. The Bush experience is a big disadvantage.
I would be campaigning for Obama.

And all the experience Bush Sr had did not prevent his lost to Clinton.

I certainly don't remember anyone saying you can't talk about experience in 1992 during the election between Bill Clinton and GHW Bush Sr. :shrug:






We do seem to be having a kind of "American Idol" like phenomenon going on.

and that is working towards one candidates advantage much more than the others.

Philly has stated his age in here before, so while he or any of us could be lying, which you're absolutely right about, as far as we know he's 16. I was just saying that asking him how many elections he'd voted in without any further explanation to the question makes it seem as though you're saying a younger person couldn't truly understand the political process. I know that's not what you were trying to do, but it did come off that way. As for the "American Idol" comment, I agree. I'm going to paraphrase something Irvine said in another thread which is that voting based on who a voter likes better is nothing new. Every election that I can remember which dates back to fuzzy memories of 92, I'd hear adults around me say they "liked" this candidate more, so they were voting for him. It's not unique to Obama. There's always a smaller number of people who truly study a candiate's positions on issues and policy plans and then vote based on what would be best for the common good and values which is what all voters should do. The larger majority of voters has always turned the presidential election into the political equivalent of a middle school student council election.
 
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Early January. Don't worry about it, though. I've trouble remembering my own friend's birthdays, how can I expect it of FYMers? :wink:
 
First of all, what's so bad about Obama's experience? He's been in politics for over ten years. What can he not do that McCain can?
 
To get back on-thread, there is not a single policy reason that I would vote for McCain.

His health care plan is just idiotic. He's embraced this free-market ideology and thinks that it can correct for all the shortcomings of health care. That is clearly wrong, and worse than that, it's lazy.

I am not aware of any kind of economic policy and he's already said he doesn't know much about economics so that's that. As an aside, I don't think he's going to want to talk about this in the general anyway, since it's not the crux of his platform. He already showed poor judgment here by telling the people of Michigan that their jobs are not coming back. That much is true, but it goes to show you that he is completely tone deaf on the economy.

His 100 more years in Iraq is not just wrong, but it's not financially sustainable. The US cannot afford to stay there, plain and simple. His saber-rattling regarding Iran is just sabre-rattling in my mind, but it's nonetheless dangerous and it's precisely the sort of issue that will keep American allies from reconciling with the new administration.

I do believe he had a reasonable immigration policy, but I think he's started flip flopping and I have no faith at all that he has enough principles left to fight the party on it. Practically speaking, he can't anyway.

I haven't heard anything else come out of his mouth that is in some way progressive or will get something done. All he talks about is the war on terror, and treats all the other issues as a "by the way" sort of thing.

Aside from that, I have no respect left for him as a person, for a variety of reasons.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

deep said:


I don't know it.

I am not sure of the ages of most of the posters in here. I do have some vague ideas.

A person can have wisdom at 15 and a person at 60 may not have much wisdom.

One advantage of living longer is that one can look back on decisions and evaluate what thinking lead to correct decisions and what thinking lead to incorrect decisions.

Hopefully I am not repeating my same mistakes over and over.

Each candidate is unique and presents certain advantages.

I only asked because I don't believe many people will go to the polls and not consider

experience. That will be one of the biggest factors people will consider.

To remove it from the discussion, makes the discussion not legitimate.

Experience does not always give one the advantage. If the election were between Obama and G W Bush. The Bush experience is a big disadvantage.
I would be campaigning for Obama.

And all the experience Bush Sr had did not prevent his lost to Clinton.

I certainly don't remember anyone saying you can't talk about experience in 1992 during the election between Bill Clinton and GHW Bush Sr. :shrug:






We do seem to be having a kind of "American Idol" like phenomenon going on.

and that is working towards one candidate's advantage much more than the others.

I sort of think you've missed the point, though.

Experience has been beaten to death, in my opinion. And it's February.

I wanted this thread to debate the issues, not an overrated number.
 
phillyfan26 said:
First of all, what's so bad about Obama's experience? He's been in politics for over ten years. What can he not do that McCain can?

I don't think there is anything really wrong with his experience

He is someone I would expect to enthusiastically support with a little more seasoning

It is kind of funny in the thread about last nights debate

all the Obama supporters seem to be real happy with the results and even the grades

and when it comes down to what really matters?

substance

Hillary got an A-

and

Obama bot a C+

Now on substance
I would give our current President a F

Bill Clinton, especially his last term was an A

Bush 1, his four years graded on substance? about a C C+


So there you have it - Obama is way better than W

about the same as Bush 1

and 2 grades below both Bill and Hillary
on what?

substance!

I do believe that Obama has the potential to be an A

and yes a little more experience and track record is all it should take
 
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phillyfan26 said:
Number of years.

And I think the C+ grade was a little undergraded.

I would never vote on age?

In 1992 and 1996 both GHW Bush 1 and Bob Dole had a lot of years and what some would call more experience than Bill Clinton.

But Bill Clinton had enough experience, backed up with sound reasoning and an agenda
- that he was successful over number of years.

as for the C+ on substance

I did read that thread pretty close and all the Obama supporters did not disagree and seemed to be agree with the results :shrug:
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

phillyfan26 said:


I sort of think you've missed the point, though.

Experience has been beaten to death, in my opinion. And it's February.

I wanted this thread to debate the issues, not an overrated number.

The problem, Philly, is that underneath all the bluster from both sides, this year's elections could very well go down as being historically significant in that this may be the weakest class of candidates in a long time.

Obama, Hillary, Edwards, McCaine, Romney & Huckabee are all c-listers. The only reason Obama looks attractive is because Hillary is so unattractive. McCaine's weaknesses make Obama attractive as well.

McCaine looks old next to Obama. That doesn't make him a bad candidate, but in this paparazzi culture it's gonna hurt him. McCaine's big problem though is that he's always been a little too far out there in his views. A little too hawkish, a little too underpolished, a little too prone to taking uninformed stances. I like his character and history, but don't trust his judgement.

Can't trust Obama either. He was just elected to the Senate. His candidacy strikes me as just doing it to see if he can, to see how far he can ride the wave he's on and to see if a black man can be president. I don't have a problem with anyone being president if they are doing it to serve the best interests of their country. I'm just can't shake the feeling Obama is running to serve himself. It's a bit too oportunistic. I don't like the drug thing from his past either. It tells me he's not the strongest willed person.

Both sides, weak weak candidates. I'm not one of those idiots who's going to cry the sky is falling whoever wins, like some did in '04, our country has too many checks and balances for that, but I hope no matter who wins, a stronger challenger comes around in 2012.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

Snowlock said:

I don't like the drug thing from his past either. It tells me he's not the strongest willed person.


Were you ok with electing an alcoholic?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

Snowlock said:


I don't like the drug thing from his past either. It tells me he's not the strongest willed person.


The rest of your statement, although I strongly disagree with much of it, is a perfectly valid opinion. This, however, is a bit ridiculous. Nearly every candidate for public office that was a teen/young adult during the 1960s or 1970s used drugs during that time. Much of the younger population in general at that time experimented heavily with drugs. Much of the young population today does. It happens regardless of our personal beliefs about it being right or wrong. Our current president and President Clinton both admitted to drug use in the past as have a lot of other people holding high office in our country.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

Snowlock said:
Can't trust Obama either. He was just elected to the Senate. His candidacy strikes me as just doing it to see if he can, to see how far he can ride the wave he's on and to see if a black man can be president. I don't have a problem with anyone being president if they are doing it to serve the best interests of their country. I'm just can't shake the feeling Obama is running to serve himself. It's a bit too oportunistic. I don't like the drug thing from his past either. It tells me he's not the strongest willed person.

Where the hell do you get this idea from? I think that, among all of this, might be the biggest bullshit I've read about Obama.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

BonoVoxSupastar said:


Were you ok with electing an alcoholic?

I knew someone was going to bring this up. I'm not even going to pursue this. Drugs and alchohol are not equal. Until drugs are legalized I'm not participating in the debate. I'll have a beer, you do cocaine. To each his own.
 
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