germany calls us efforts "adventurism"

[Lilly]

http://dw-world.de/english/0,3367,14...21_1_A,00.html


i've been reflecting today over the latest political developments from the past few weeks. how america is pushing itself farther into countries without reason nor explaining it to its own public. whether it be accusations of prisoner abuse or corporate scandals, america is heading toward some serious reconstruction. my generation doesn't need a vietnam.

[U2Bama]

I disagree with the German administration that it is "adventurism," and I disagree with your claim that we are "pushing ourselves further into countries without reason."

In the case at hand, I think that Saddam Hussein is the reason, due to his fetishes for killing people with chemical weapons and his growing desire for nuclear weapons.

Also, he is an anti-semite.

~U2Alabama

[Lilly]

Originally posted by U2Bama
I disagree with the German administration that it is "adventurism," and I disagree with your claim that we are "pushing ourselves further into countries without reason."

In the case at hand, I think that Saddam Hussein is the reason, due to his fetishes for killing people with chemical weapons and his growing desire for nuclear weapons.

Also, he is an anti-semite.

~U2Alabama

i know that saddam is the reason. but i want george w to tell me that too. i want him to list it out to me why we MUST go to war with iraq instead of other options. i just really don't like where this is headed.

[U2Bama]

I don't "like" where it is headed, either. I don't like the thought that my next door neighbor, a Blackhawk pilot with 2 very young daughters, could be called up. I don't like the fact that it could make us a target of more groups. I wish I could snap my fingers and Saddam would be absolved of power, but that won't happen.

For the record, I am as yet undecided as to when any action should be taken against him. It would be great if an internal revolution got rid of him.

~U2Alabama

[Lilly]

i am sorry, i hope it didn't seem like i was saying that i thought you liked where this was going. in no way did i mean that.


bama, you are wiser than i in many ways, how do you see this ending? i have thought about the possibility of a peace talk, but ruled that out completely since we are dealing with an illogical man. do you think there is another way to fight this other than air raids? cos i'm scared of their retaliation.

[U2Bama]

I am not necessarily wiser than you; as I stated, these are merely my opinions. Unfortunately, I do feel that an armed conflict will occur. I hope it does not occur, but I would not oppose any appropriate action taken.

Someone posted a thread or poll awhile back asking people's opinion on war; I didn't reply, but I would have said that YES, war is BAD, in fact, it is HELL. Both sides lose people. Peace may be achieved, but at the cost of carnage. I wish it were never necessary, but unfortunately, my wish has not come true.

How will this situation all turn out? I do not know; I am nervous about having so little international support. Maybe many things will change very soon and nothing bad will happen. Here's hoping.

~U2Alabama

[Lilly]

Originally posted by U2Bama
I I do not know; I am nervous about having so little international support.

~U2Alabama

exactly. our going pretty much alone into this is scaring me. a lot. either way there will be a huge public backlash. i'm not sure that i would really fully support a "by any means necessary" machivellian type war. i think that a lot has been and is being taken away from us as far as civil liberties are being concerned. this is something that the american public should watch a little closer.

[U2Bama]

Personally, I have not experienced this deprivation of civil liberties, but apparently many people have. I have been subjected to numerous searches at the airport and all of that type of thing, but that is not a loss of civil liberties. Some grocery store chains have turned over their "Frequent Buyer Card" data to the FBI, but isn't that what liberals have been wanting the government to do with a "smart card"?

~U2Alabama

[Lilly]

our civil liberties haven't gone...yet. i just feel that they are in jeopardy of being compromised. what do i care if the fbi knows i buy white bread from rainbow?


and like you, i've been searched a thousand times over at airports. hell, even the 5 month old baby i was carrying was searched. i don't mind that, it's for safety, but i'm watching over the rest of my rights very carefully.

[U2Bama]

We went to see a movie last weekend, and when I called the "What's Showing Hotline" at the theater, they had a special announcement, "In light of security procautions taken due to 9/11, we no longer allow backpacks in the cinemas."

I felt violated in that case, since I usually like to take my backpack into the theater and read books and check my camping equipment while I am watching the movie in a dark setting.

~U2Alabama

[LOVE MUSCLE]

I want to say that not only Robbie (aka. Like Someone to Blame) has a lovely wife that would go, Bama (~U2) has a neighbor that would go, but my one and only sister and her new husband would also go to Iraq when (not if) it happens. I talked with them both about this a couple of weeks back in my pool while they visited and we watched the kids tear up my pool and raise hell.

I would trade with my lovely sister in the beat of a heart, I hope she really does not go.

I think my lovely mother, who has lopus and other serious health problems, hopes her only daughter does not go into war either.

However, I support what we are going to do.

I mean this in a non-arguementative way.

Lilly, and others, you have no idea what we are facing if we don't go. I really encourage you to pray , as will I.

God Bless,
Z

[Lilly]

Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE
Lilly, and others, you have no idea what we are facing if we don't go. I really encourage you to pray , as will I.

God Bless,
Z

i see what we will face if we don't go, some of it at least. i just hate to see it like this, all of this unnecessary secrecy and lying. i want the case made to me still.

i don't know love muscle. i'm just scared.

[TylerDurden]

Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE

Lilly, and others, you have no idea what we are facing if we don't go. I really encourage you to pray , as will I.

God Bless,
Z

No, no we don't because the US (Bush and co) are doing a terrible terrible job in 'selling' the idea. Spitting out good soundbites for the 6 o'clock news isn't enough.

If Iraq has stuff (WMD's), and is definetaly a threat, then the worlds support for the US would double, triple, but the US just isn't making a good case for it.

I was watching the Fox News Chnl the other day (its exactly the same in Australia as the US, with the exception of a couple of 'local' hours a day) and its unbelievable. Biggest load of bullshit I ever saw. That is not a news channel. Does Rumsfeld own it?

Anyway, if the US can put their case for war out on the table, then I think they'll get the support of people like me, and maybe the support of some other countries. Don't underestimate how important it will be to get that support either (not mine, George doesn't care for mine, bastard) but other nations. Going it alone, or just with the support of Israel, UK and Australia (which is pretty much all you've got) would be a big mistake for the US.

But they are not making a case at all.

[Lilly]

Originally posted by TylerDurden

But they are not making a case at all.

i don't WANT a case being made to me. i don't WANT propaganda given to me. i WANT THE TRUTH. and i don't think it's that much to ask to get that from my own government.


though you do have a very good point about iraq having wmd (it's not a question, they DO have them) and the us making a case against that. we need the support of other countries on this one, it is not something to be taken on by the us alone.

[LOVE MUSCLE]

Well they aren't the salesmen they should be, that is obvious. Maybe the case complete cannot be made fully available in order to not jeopardize troops.

I think that the facts we DO know should be enough though, I am far too drunk to get into this AGAIN tonight though.

My knowledge from my association is not something I can discuss either.

I will limp on back to Lemonade stand where I can at least be drunk without notice

G'night guys and gals

Peace

and I love you all

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I can understand why people feel apprehensive about the idea of America attacking Iraq, especially without any sort of international support. As everyone knows, the UK is basically the only country which has more or less said it will support American military action regardless and I find that frightening. Primarily I find it frightening that our Prime Minister (and a Labour Party PM for that matter) is willing to consider supporting a war which could kill tens of thousands of innocent people, but as Lilly said, it's frightening to think of possible retaliation if this attack does go ahead. Earlier this year Blair started talking about a dossier of evidence against Saddam Hussein which he would provide evidence to the public from if the UK does support attacking Iraq. So far we've seen NO evidence. I watch the news numerous times everyday, I read the newspapers and I have yet to see one scrap of reliable evidence provided by my own government as to why exactly we should support America attacking Iraq.

Have Bush and other officials in his administration considered the possibility that there may be good reason that other countries hvae refused to support an attack against Iraq? Because it seems to me that the Bush administration has stated it will go ahead with an attack regardless of the wishes of other countries. Perhaps other countries aren't just "cowardly" or "a bunch of liberals" etc - they have genuine concerns about the outcome of attacking Iraq and they're not willing to involve themself in such action.

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Originally posted by TylerDurden

I was watching the Fox News Chnl the other day (its exactly the same in Australia as the US, with the exception of a couple of 'local' hours a day) and its unbelievable. Biggest load of bullshit I ever saw. That is not a news channel. Does Rumsfeld own it?

lol, I hear ya! We get Fox News over here (UK) too and I don't think I've ever seen such biased television. (Sorry to anyone who's a big fan of Fox News) I was sort of listening to the channel without watchingthe other day, and I heard someone practically yelling about how Canada and France are cowards because they won't support attacking Iraq, and I thought it was some person they were interviewing. Then I turned round and it was actually the PRESENTER!

:::intends to stick to BBC News 24 or CNN in the future:::

[speedracer]

Originally posted by TylerDurden


No, no we don't because the US (Bush and co) are doing a terrible terrible job in 'selling' the idea. Spitting out good soundbites for the 6 o'clock news isn't enough.

If Iraq has stuff (WMD's), and is definetaly a threat, then the worlds support for the US would double, triple, but the US just isn't making a good case for it.

I was watching the Fox News Chnl the other day (its exactly the same in Australia as the US, with the exception of a couple of 'local' hours a day) and its unbelievable. Biggest load of bullshit I ever saw. That is not a news channel. Does Rumsfeld own it?

Anyway, if the US can put their case for war out on the table, then I think they'll get the support of people like me, and maybe the support of some other countries. Don't underestimate how important it will be to get that support either (not mine, George doesn't care for mine, bastard) but other nations. Going it alone, or just with the support of Israel, UK and Australia (which is pretty much all you've got) would be a big mistake for the US.

But they are not making a case at all.

I'd like to see the UN weapons inspectors go back into Iraq and get kicked out/denied access/generally harassed again; I have very little doubt that this would happen if the weapons inspectors did resume their job. This would certainly solidify the allegations that Iraq is developing WMDs.

And if the weapons inspectors are allowed total access but don't uncover Saddam's WMD programs, then I guess we just have to leave him alone.

[Hi Bias]

Originally posted by Lilly


i've been reflecting today over the latest political developments from the past few weeks. how america is pushing itself farther into countries without reason nor explaining it to its own public. whether it be accusations of prisoner abuse or corporate scandals, america is heading toward some serious reconstruction. my generation doesn't need a vietnam.

Lilly,

It is healthy and reasonable to be skeptical.

[LOVE MUSCLE]

Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Have Bush and other officials in his administration considered the possibility that there may be good reason that other countries hvae refused to support an attack against Iraq? Because it seems to me that the Bush administration has stated it will go ahead with an attack regardless of the wishes of other countries. Perhaps other countries aren't just "cowardly" or "a bunch of liberals" etc - they have genuine concerns about the outcome of attacking Iraq and they're not willing to involve themself in such action.

Will you still hold this same opinion if we were to leave Iraq alone and they start lobbing nuclear missles into your backyard?

Remember, they have already committed mass-murder against their own people and theri neighbors.

I think it is a fallacy when other nations say they are "against" attacking Iraq. Should we not attack him, then they won't have gone on record in support of us.