Gays and Lesbians can now openly serve in the U.S millitary

[DoctorGonzo]

....for the time being.....they will be discharged after the current conflict is over.

Apparently, the millitary will collapse if Gays and Lesbians are allowed to serve openly during peactime, but when we need cannon fodder, they're no problem at all!

Another win for U.S hypocrisy.

link

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 09-19-2001).]

[melon]

Eh...f*** the military.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

[z edge]

Originally posted by melon:
Eh...f*** the military.

Melon

Melon, please don't start that here. I may not agree with some of the policies, but I do take offense to comments like this. In fact gays proudly serve now without prejudice, albeit in silence.

For those of you who have not been there please understand the very nature of your duty does require you to be a well-oiled machine and some lifestyles or personal feelings just get in the way and are best left off the base.

I am all for gay or lesbians serving our military, and I have known some as well. My point is that work is work, and personal affairs should not get in the way of military duties. Especially considering the circumstances/ nature of the types of missions conducted.

I should point out that i was unable after 2 attempts to link to the article mentioned above, so i am only responding to the comments above based on my opinion and past experience.

[diamondbruno9]

Originally posted by melon:
Eh...f*** the military.

Melon

I concur w/Mr Z-EDGE Late..Melon-esquire
D
B
9

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"..it's about breaking barriers, transcending boundries and conquering great divides"-Bono 1987

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An open letter to Bono from myself www.arizonaautoweb.com/bono/

[melon]

z edge, do take no offense to what I have written, and I'm not speaking of specific servicemen or women, who have nothing to do with the interworkings of the military bureaucracy. They do what they are told, and they do it well.

As for the bastards at the top of the military, f*** them all. I think all the GLBT community should abandon the military completely. If they are not welcome at peace time, why should they join during wartime? Stick it to the bastards. I'm sorry. This is an issue that brings me considerable anger. Hypocrisy infuriates me.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

[melon]

For those having trouble getting the article in the link:

Gay, lesbian troops can serve openly -- for now
Pentagon suspends discharges during conflict

Christopher Heredia, Chronicle Staff Writer Wednesday, September 19, 2001


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In the aftermath of last week's terrorist attacks, the Pentagon has issued an order suspending discharges -- including those of service members who disclose their homosexuality -- a spokesman for the Department of Defense said yesterday.

"First, gays and lesbians would be allowed to serve during any war, just as they do now, as long as they remain in compliance with the homosexual conduct policy," said Maj. James P. Cassella of the assistant secretary of defense for public affairs' office.

Cassella was referring to "don't ask, don't tell," the edict President Bill Clinton enacted in 1993 as a compromise to his campaign promise to lift the ban on gay men and lesbians in the military.

"Don't ask, don't tell" says gay men and lesbians may serve as long as they keep their sexual orientation private.

"(A) stop-loss (order) has been authorized," Cassella said. "However, consistent with past practices, administrative discharges (medical, hardship, suitability) could continue under stop loss. Commanders would be given enough latitude in this area to apply good judgment and balance the best interests of the service, the unit and the individual involved."

Cassella did not provide a date when the order was issued.

It's the second time in recent history that a stop-loss order has been issued. The last time was during the Persian Gulf War under President George Bush.

In light of President Bush's recent call for as many as 50,000 reservists nationwide, and the fact that the military is on heightened alert, the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, an advocacy group for homosexual troops based in Washington, believes gay men and lesbians will be able to serve the nation in the event of a war against terrorism.

The network said, however, that those who choose to disclose they are gay might face discharge after the conflict is ended, as happened to gay troops after the Gulf War.

"The stop-loss order is an explicit acknowledgment by the Pentagon that gays and lesbians can serve their country, no question about that," Steve Ralls, spokesman for the network, said yesterday. "It also sends the unfortunate message that while there are (gay men and lesbians) who put themselves in harm's way, who risked their lives for the country, they can expect to be fired from their job" once the conflict is over.

Since the World Trade Center and Pentagon were attacked on Sept. 11, the network has been fielding many calls from gay men and lesbians who want to help the nation's military effort.

Georgetown University law Professor Chai Feldlum said she would be surprised if the military softens its stance against gay men and lesbians in the military. She said she doesn't anticipate the impending military response to terrorism to reach the scale of the Persian Gulf War.

"It doesn't appear there is going to be that large a need for bodies," Feldlum said. "I hope the policy does get lifted, but that's not going to happen for a number of years. It will require a change in society, after people realize the policy is antiquated."

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

[z edge]

Originally posted by melon:
z edge, do take no offense to what I have written, and I'm not speaking of specific servicemen or women, who have nothing to do with the interworkings of the military bureaucracy. They do what they are told, and they do it well.

As for the bastards at the top of the military, f*** them all. I think all the GLBT community should abandon the military completely. If they are not welcome at peace time, why should they join during wartime? Stick it to the bastards. I'm sorry. This is an issue that brings me considerable anger. Hypocrisy infuriates me.

Melon

Okay we have now moved forums-fine by me. Melon you comment was offensive, however, I have talked with you enough to understand a little bit about you and the way you react to things and I realize it wasn't directed AT me or anyone in particular HERE or serving the military.

As for the "bastards" at the top of our military ranks, they started out as pissants just like everbody else does and are more qualified to be there than anyone. Without them or our fine military, last tuesday would not even be noteworthy in comparison to the hell we would be used to.

I will tell you why GLBI serve in the military, because they are everyone everywhere. They represent everyone from our clergy to our teachers, lawyers, doctors, public officials, sanitation workers, and so on. There are a number of GLBI that are patriotic and want to serve just like I did, and so they do.

I think you may be reading too much into the article. Just like during Desert Shield/Storm, they put in effect the 'stop loss' which cancels any movements or departures of service. In 1991, I was supposed to go to Germany, but instead I got to go to Saudi! When the dust settled and my new orders came in, they were for Korea instead of Germany! So all they are doing is Putting 'business-as-usual' on hold. This effects everyone not just gays or lesbians.

And I firmly believe they have the right to serve, yet as I indicated above, I feel that is their personal choice and should not be posted on billboards which is where controversey begins.


[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 09-19-2001).]

[Miss MacPhisto]

Originally posted by melon:
Eh...f*** the military.

Melon

Oh gee, I'd LOVE to!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert

[melon]

Originally posted by z edge:
Okay we have now moved forums-fine by me. Melon you comment was offensive, however, I have talked with you enough to understand a little bit about you and the way you react to things and I realize it wasn't directed AT me or anyone in particular HERE or serving the military.

Excellent! You know my writing style well.

As for the "bastards" at the top of our military ranks, they started out as pissants just like everbody else does and are more qualified to be there than anyone. Without them or our fine military, last tuesday would not even be noteworthy in comparison to the hell we would be used to.

I'm not talking about standard military operations. They do great at that.

It's the inherent bigotry that they promote. Sure, for the press, they're great! Behind the scenes, they're misogynist, racist, and homophobic. But--here's the killer--homosexuals are fit to be in the military only when they need gun fodder. And to that, I say, f*** the military. My brain didn't turn off once we were all told to be patriotic. I can smell a skunk when I see one.

I will tell you why GLBI serve in the military, because they are everyone everywhere. They represent everyone from our clergy to our teachers, lawyers, doctors, public officials, sanitation workers, and so on. There are a number of GLBI that are patriotic and want to serve just like I did, and so they do.

Hehe...you obviously don't know my acronyms. G-Gay, L-Lesbian, B-Bisexual, T-Transgendered.

But see, they can only serve in the military if they hide their sexuality. Of course, the military shouldn't be laden with sexuality issues, but it should be consistent. All soldiers who show evidence of being heterosexual should be discharged too. All mentions of wives, girlfriends, children--all distractions. It might coerce more impressionable recruits to join a questionable lifestyle that will lower military morale. If homosexuals are "distractions," then why aren't heterosexuals equal distractions?

I think you may be reading too much into the article. Just like during Desert Shield/Storm, they put in effect the 'stop loss' which cancels any movements or departures of service. In 1991, I was supposed to go to Germany, but instead I got to go to Saudi! When the dust settled and my new orders came in, they were for Korea instead of Germany! So all they are doing is Putting 'business-as-usual' on hold. This effects everyone not just gays or lesbians.

That might be true. The article might be looking further into it than it should be. Obviously, like anything in this forum, it tends to diverge elsewhere...

And I firmly believe they have the right to serve, yet as I indicated above, I feel that is their personal choice and should not be posted on billboards which is where controversey begins.

First of all, it's not a choice. I think most would turn it off and on at will if they could, just to avoid the bigotry at certain situations. Besides, the word "choice" would indicate bisexuality, but I digress...

People don't realize it, but the heterosexual world plasters their lifestyle all over everything, not just billboards. Take one day to consciously look at everything, and you'll see that what I say is true--everything from television to movies to church to work to--yes--the military. The reality is that the military is guilty of prejudice, plain and simple, and I will not support any organization with such blatant hypocrisy from peace time versus war time.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

[z edge]

Originally posted by melon:
First of all, it's not a choice. I think most would turn it off and on at will if they could, just to avoid the bigotry at certain situations. Besides, the word "choice" would indicate bisexuality, but I digress...

People don't realize it, but the heterosexual world plasters their lifestyle all over everything, not just billboards. Take one day to consciously look at everything, and you'll see that what I say is true--everything from television to movies to church to work to--yes--the military. The reality is that the military is guilty of prejudice, plain and simple, and I will not support any organization with such blatant hypocrisy from peace time versus war time.

Melon

Melon-
I realize it is not a choice, so I want to clear that up.

If you were to look at the military as a large corporation, for instance, you would note that they have as many anti-discriminatory laws if not more than any other large corporation. The GLBT (i got that right this time lol) issue being the "lone ranger" of issues that they cannot settle on.

There is more freedom than you think. If a gay soldier wants to have his boyfriend stay the night with him, fine. Just close the door, and do as you wish. Just as a heterosexual couple would not be allowed to have sex with their door open.

The only time they are kicked out is when the proclaim their sexuality, and none other. Think of it from another prospective, if a gay soldier were to want to get out-they can with a simple proclimation. And the ridicule is not as it used to be.

In comparing it to a large corporation, there are less 'hate crimes' per capita than in any other organizations that big. But since the media tends to be liberal, I would bet you will hear about those associated with the military more.

In combat front-line units, women are not allowed because they are distractions to the well-oiled machine that I spoke of earlier. And you know us men, put us in the desert for 1 month without sex, then throw a woman out on the front line, and ask us to 'concentrate' on our objective. Well, that applies to homosexuals too, and they can't very well say "no women or gay men allowed on the front" because that is a whole different kind of discrimination.

The rest of your acronoym, The 'T' for transgender I am purposely avoiding here because that is an entire different topic I think.

This policy is not "hypocrisy from peace time to war time", it is simply business as usual considering the events taking place.

And yes, I am "getting to know you" somewhat

[whammy]

Here is some real life testimony.

As I said before, I'm in the NAVY. I just came from a ship that I was attached to for almost 5 years. The last two years I served on that ship, I was a Work Center Supervisor for one of the main weapons systems on the ship. I was in charge of 6 individuals. Two female and four males. My Assistant WCS was one of the females and she was a lesbian and one of the males was gay.

Now, I don't know if any of you remember or have paid attention to any of my recent posts but I'm pretty much a conservative guy. In lieu of recent situations, I guess my "brain has turned off" and my opinions have become even more conservative and "patriotic."

My assistant WCS, Smith, was one of the most squared-away (she always had an outstanding appearance and maintained superior performance) sailors of any individuals I ever met in the Navy. Tapaha, the male, was very junior but, incredibly smart and a great asset to the ship. Everybody knew they were G&L. From the Captain of the ship all the way down to my boss. 350 personnel ship. Everyone knew everything about everybody. Smith and Tapaha were always in the best of the best spotlight.

Sexuality in the work place:
A female Chief (E-7) was making sexual advances to a Seamen (E-3). He was the cat's meow of the ship. He was afraid to make it public due fear of teasing ("Dude why are you complaining, etc"). She wasn't hurtful on the eyes at all. He eventually did and she was reduced to an E-6 and kicked out of the Navy (she was married).
A new young male cook came to the ship. He was very out spoken about his demeanor, if you know what I mean. Very gay....I mean happy. He made many passes at many men on the ship. Eventually, he was kicked off the ship.

So what am I trying to say?
I don't think the "Don't Talk-Don't Tell" policy is right but in my 7 years of experience and on my last ship, it has worked. Everyone knows who is gay and who is not and it's not held against them.
Sexuality should not be brought to the work place regardless of your preference or lifestyle.
Now, Tapaha was a full-blooded Navaho from Arizona and some of the A-holes on the ship called him "Dances with Men." There is always going to be "those A-holes" everywhere.

Overall, in my Navy experiences and on my last ship, G&L's have had the same opportunities, rights, and punishments as Heteros.



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GOD BLESS AMERICA !!!........................................U2 is still the best band ever!!

[Klodomir]

Oh, how sad! Gays and lesbians are good enough as cannon fodder, but in peacetime they can lose their jobs?

Btw, anyone who can't control their hormones when seeing a member of the sex they are attracted to shouldn't be in the military - gay or straight. In fact, they should get help no matter where they are working.

[bonovista]

Miss Mac!!!!! *BV turns beet red*

LMFAOROTF!!!!!!!


On a seriouys note now..
Whammy, how's your wife?? Hope she's doing well..

[whammy]

Originally posted by bonovista:
Miss Mac!!!!! *BV turns beet red*

LMFAOROTF!!!!!!!


On a seriouys note now..
Whammy, how's your wife?? Hope she's doing well..

Wow! Thanks for asking!

She's doing as well as can be. Good days and bad days but the bad days are becoming scarcest. It helps that I'm off the ship now. I'm home more often.

One day at a time.

You put a on my face bonovista. Thanks again for asking.

God Bless America

[bonovista]

Your welcome Whammy..It was quite a touching story..I did indeed worry about your wife's aftermath..Very happy to see she is doing better. Bad days and good days is very common, what helps the most, is having a great husband who is understanding and very loving..Seems she has that, and I thank God for my husband Emeraldscorpio.

[bonoman]

Originally posted by whammy:
"Dances with Men."

come on you gotta find that funny...


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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

[z edge]

Originally posted by bonoman:
come on you gotta find that funny...

:
I found it pretty funny

Great story Whammy!
I have had similair experiences. I hope those were not the real names of your personnel though

Most people don't care about your private life as long as you do your job and contribute to a successful mission.

Your point was very well clear that sexual harrassment is not acceptable whether it is woman on man or man on man, or whatever the case.

[melon]

Well, it has been a few days since I've been able to respond properly, but I'll say it succinctly:

I'm glad that reality is much kinder than the policy states.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

[Angela Harlem]

"homosexual conduct policy"

The military HAVE one?

Why the hell are they treated differently?

Geez.

[melon]

Discrimination against homosexuals is not illegal in America. So, according to the statutes, it's not "discrimination." Anyone with half a brain will realize there is, but it's like the U.S.'s treatment of African Americans after the Civil War. Everyone from governors to legislatures to presidents to courts flouted the two constitutional amendments that granted blacks equal rights to whites, but it took another century to get a government to enforce it's own laws.

This time in history is no different. The future will look upon our time as yet another bigoted contradiction. Something to be proud of, yes?

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!