FYM can't change the world, but FYM can change the world in me

[Irvine511]

so ... there must be a reason why most of us keep coming back for use and abuse, vindication and vitriol, intellectual comradery and combat.

i think most of us who post regularly come to be challenged -- and often this challenging forces us to examine our beliefs and personal totems, and many times i would imagine that being forced to defend yourself causes you to dig deeper and think through the logic of what we believe, ultimately strengthening and clarifying these beliefs.

but now always. often, minds and hearts are changed, eyes are opened, stereotypes are thwarted (or perhaps reconfirmed), and the world looks just a little bit different when we log out for the day.

so ... anyone want to share a story? something specific? something vague? point out a particular thread? thank an individual poster?

i'm hoping good feelings come form this ... and i'll start:

to the sincere, devout Christians -- liberal, conservative, and somewhere-in-between -- of FYM (and there are at least half a dozen of you) i've found a surprising amount of logic and intellectual rigor in the various beliefs they hold. my assumptions about the devout was that they had chosen not to think critically, not to question their received knowledge, and to wrap the comforting blanket of unchallenged certainty around them in the face of a rapidly changing world. while i think that stereotype is true to some extent, i think that in FYM, that is the exception rather than the rule.

while i can't say i agree, i can understand where certain beliefs are coming from and the sometimes rather sound logic behind it.

 

[AEON]

Actually Irvine, YOUR posts have enlightened me more than others. I wouldn't say you have changed my mind on any issue, as I am a bit stubborn, but you have helped soften my heart.


I find forum discussions difficult to follow at times, because they jump all over the place pretty quickly. What makes it even more difficult is when someone jumps in at page 7 without reading the first 6 pages of discussion

Nonetheless, it is still worth it.

Thanks Irvine.

 

[Liesje]

I've done a 180 (for the better, I think) on all issues relating to homosexuality I think it's because I only have one close friend that's gay and I grew up in a very conservative community, so I was never exposed to the reality of restricting people's rights and discriminating against them and trying to make them feel ashamed (maybe the worst thing of all) simply because of how they were born and who they choose to have relationships with.

As much as I've changed in that regard, FYM discussions have also strengthened my previous beliefs in other areas. I think that's good too.

As for thanking individual posters, I guess I should point out that the posts I most appreciate usually come from people I don't often agree with: BVS, Angela Harlem, indra, and anitram, to name a few. Also props to Irvine and melon for giving me a different perspective (see first paragraph).

 

[maycocksean]

so ... there must be a reason why most of us keep coming back for use and abuse, vindication and vitriol, intellectual comradery and combat.

i think most of us who post regularly come to be challenged -- and often this challenging forces us to examine our beliefs and personal totems, and many times i would imagine that being forced to defend yourself causes you to dig deeper and think through the logic of what we believe, ultimately strengthening and clarifying these beliefs.

And then some of us are just plain addicts.

Seriously though, you've certainly captured why I come on Interference. I've always enjoyed debate (my wife does NOT, so that's not something we do at home). I like to be challenged and I like to hear different perspectives. I've never found a community quite like FYM for that.

As far as any specific changes, I think anyone following those many pages of the Episcopalian threads knows the major sea change for me. But, you know, I think I was ready for it. Without some personal experiences outside the world of FYM (and also within FYM. Props to Irvine and Melon for that) I might not have been as open. But things had been happening and my own reading of the Bible was forcing me to reconsider certain interpretations that I'd always assumed were a given.

Going a few rounds about my faith on other threads as a Christian also forced me to examine what I believe as well, and in that case strengthned my faith.

So I'm grateful for FYM and for all those invisible faces and invaluable individuals out there.

Carry on, everyone!

 

[verte76]

I come to FYM to be challenged and to have things to think about. There are people with whom I frequently disagree but they write extraordinary posts that really make me question my beliefs, but then this just makes my beliefs stronger because I have something to base them on.

 

[nbcrusader]

i think most of us who post regularly come to be challenged -- and often this challenging forces us to examine our beliefs and personal totems, and many times i would imagine that being forced to defend yourself causes you to dig deeper and think through the logic of what we believe, ultimately strengthening and clarifying these beliefs.

This describes my experience. I often will scan posts when I wake up in the morning to start thinking about the issues.

I feel I have learned quite a bit both in the substance of what I know and believe, and the style in which it is best communicated.

I'd hate to give shout outs to just a couple of people because I have learned from so many, but I will give special props to Irvine. Some days, it seems as if we account for half the posts in this place as we wrestle through issues.

 

[BonosSaint]

I came to FYM--abandoning the U2 stuff about half an hour after I joined Interference-- and generally made it a home, taking brief vacations to other forums.

First thing I learned after all my initial spouting off here was how much I didn't know and I became much more inclined to listen and to question than to talk (not that I'm incapable of the lengthy post, lol).

I appreciate the difference in viewpoints from other countries and cultures and all those who have experiences different than mine.
I've valued the information I've learned--I've gotten mini scientific seminars from Wanderer and mini medical seminars from anitram, information on Judaism from Yolland and on the differences between varying denominations from varying sources. And more information than I ever wanted to know about breasts from Dreadsox. (I've learned a lot of things from people too numerous to mention here.)

Sometimes I've been disappointed with interplay and exchange on many topics, but have found so many gems interspersed where I least expected to find them that I keep looking anyway just to make sure (which appears to be my general modus operandi anyway).

There are people whose posts I look for automatically--Mrs. Springsteen, indra, Angela Harlem, maycocksean, Dread, Irvine, Wanderer (sometimes the last with trepidation). Sometimes I violently disagree (which I may voice or not), but I might hear something that intrigues me, makes me laugh, challenges me to consider something I haven't considered, teaches me something I didn't know or clarifies something I didn't understand. On the very rare occasion, I've been shaken to my core.

On the downside, sometimes I can predict someone's position almost word for word until I don't pay attention any more or hear the same arguments or judgments over and over again. For me, somebody who has something all figured out doesn't have much to teach me (and it's all about me )

I've seen (here and elsewhere) the myths I've held dear disintegrating until I have very few sacred cows left. I've become more objective. I cannot break down one post or one thread that has changed my position, but it's been all part of an evolutionary process.

I've used the word nuance a few times in the past and a few people have taken umbrage as if I were using some kind of code word. But I love shadings and hate black and white so value the people here who can move through the different shades. I love what you can learn from somebody's throwaway sentence or when you see a moment of recognition between two quarreling parties. I love when participants can blend the personal with the idea and when they can articulate their struggles or doubts or hypocrisies. I trust them more when I see a person instead of an ideology, theology or any other ology.

I appreciate when people can mingle play with seriousness.

I move comfortably in the realm of ideas, but when I read I want characters and FYM has an interesting mix of characters.

 

[U2democrat]

FYM helps me hone some of my debating skills, it also gives me fresh ideas to use, and it opens my eyes to other perspectives. I also use it as an outlet, so few people I know want to talk politics or other deep issues affecting us today, but here I can do that and get things off my chest. I can also use it to promote candidates and convince people to vote for them


Also, the people in FYM tend to be my favorite over all Interferencers. There are good folks who visit here.

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not want to name anyone for fear of forgetting someone.

This is pretty much the only forum I come to for the last four years.

I have probably at one time or another had a good debate or two with almost every regular in here. I used to think I held my own, but life in the last year, has sapped the strength from my posts and drained the desire to debate much.

I still visit, I still read....and boy do I laugh a lot...yell at the screen a lot....and wish we could all sit down for a pint.

There are people in here I feel close to...have met...have tried to meet....and hope to meet. You know who you are.....

 

[INDY500]

Personally speaking, if I was looking for 100% agreement with my views I'd be at Larrythecableguy.com. Much better to be challenged and maybe, just maybe, learn a thing or two.

Git-R-Done

 

[U2democrat]

....and hope to meet. You know who you are.....

The Kennedy Library is still in our future, my friend.

 

[coemgen]

Wow. What a great idea for a thread. This is a unique community we have here and I've loved being a part of it. Not to be trite here, but it feels like family -- more like cousins who get together on family functions and argue though.
I kind of come and go, but I sincerely appreciate everyone's input and perspectives. There's some brilliant people here.

Irvine, I appreciate your . . . humility in saying you can appreciate some of the Christian perspective. There's a form of Christianity that hasn't been kind to you and one I know you despise, but you're able to understand there's those of us who try to be different, and actually stick to the Bible.

I would have to say I've been influenced by FYM in two ways. The first is just gaining a broader understanding of what people think. There's a lot of variety in here and I've found it interesting to see where we all come from and what influences our perspectives.
The second helped changed my perspective on my faith -- a bit. I've never claimed a political party, but I didn't question the Right Wing Christianity that's so prevalent enough before. Hearing people's perspectives here didn't change my beliefs as a Christian, but it led me to see just how much Right Wing Christianity misses the mark that is Christ. I would say "God's Politics" by Jim Wallis, Relevant magazine and of course, Bono's example have influenced my thought on this more, but the dialogue in FYM has sharpened my perspective too.

Thanks guys.

God bless,

coemgen

 

[the rockin edge]

i just lurk.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Most of my opinions have not changed, but the rigour of defence and the level of justification certainly have.

 

[BVS]

Well I've been here almost 4 years.

I'm not sure if my stance has really changed on most issues, but my view has. My empathy has grown tremendously from viewing other peoples opinions.

And defending my views have forced me to research and educate myself on the issues.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Honestly the main reason I like this forum is that I feel ignored/out of place in the rest of Interference. There are things I don't like about it too though- I have no desire for vitriol or abuse or to argue in an angry manner or incessantly with people, especially about the same old topics that follow the same old pattern. I like to see a "more human, less robotic" side of this place, and that doesn't always happen. I try. I like to get beyond preconceived notions and stereotypes. I don't like nastiness.

I like to read what others have to say, and to think about it. For the most part I do enjoy this forum, as much as I've tried to quit it sometimes for one reason or another. Some things bother me, one in particular, but those are best kept private. I let things get to me that I shouldn't, but I'm a sensitive person and find it impossible to pretend that I'm not or to be any other way.

If you gravitate to people in non-cyber life who share your views for the most part, it's enjoyable to have somewhere to go where that isn't always the case.

I'm grateful for the people I've gotten to know through here who are so kind to me and who continue to be so, and who appreciate me as a person. I appreciate them too. You can develop a lovely relationship with people you just e-mail, well I find that I can.

And I'm grateful for those who bother to reply to my threads here, and those who give me kind words here. I appreciate that very much too, it's nice to feel that you matter even if it's on a message board.

 

[BonosSaint]

 

[yolland]

It may not sound very inspiring at first glance, but I think the major lesson I've learned from 2 years of hanging out here is that satisfying and productive conversation online *really is* possible--and that when it's good, it's every bit as memorable and exciting as the best "real-world" conversation. I do still browse a few other boards on occasion--political ones, Jewish-interest, scholarly sites--and honestly, 80%+ of the discussions on them just seem worthless compared to here, IMO. All seem overrun with either A) depressingly vapid people with so little of interest to contribute that I'm amazed they bother, or B) smart, but horribly abrasive and caustic types who just seem there to attack, or C) impressively knowledgeable folks who are, unfortunately, so suffocatingly turgid and dull that my eyes glaze over before I make it through a single screen.

I don't know what it is about FYM, but we just do seem to collect the most memorable and intriguing personality ensembles here, people who play off each other in a way that's almost always a pleasure to jump into...or sometimes just to watch. I'm amazed by how vivid and strong the impressions I carry around in my head of most of the regulars around here are...most of them even include "visuals," lol--which I'm sure are hysterically off-base in most cases, but I can't help it! It's never a bunch of words on a screen that I find myself scowling, furrowing my brow, gaping in surprise, or laughing affectionately at...it's always a person, a thoroughly familiar presence that's every bit as real and immediate to me as most people I "actually" know. I don't know how to account for why it all works out, but this place is special.

 

[coemgen]

That's awesome, yolland.

 

[Muggsy]

I like to visit this forum because I learn a lot from the opinions and the debates from others... My opinions aren't very valueable (because I live in the bubble of my childish dreams ) but it is good to hear intelligent thoughts about important issues, and see the different faces of each one of them.

 

[Teta040]

I have not had the opportunity here to post as much as want to (I am THE WORST one for long posts.... )..but if did, I'm sure I'd be the most famous for spouting off on Middle Eastern history, American history, or history in general. Like Dread, I'm a history buff and he got a little taste of my style when the Iraqi Constitution debuted last fall...(and chalk me up to one of those you "tried to meet:, Dread...we missed each other at a Boston show last October by an hour when my stupid train was late....but then your friend's kid was spared being polluted by the thoughts of a liberal......
)

And yes, the breastfeeding thread was, I have to admit, one of the true epics of this site. I printed all of it out, and have it still. Thanks, Dread.

What I get here, I guess, is a sense of community that comforts me profoundly when I feel that the world is sinking deeper into Dante's Frozen Mosh Pit each day. When the worst stories come out over the wires, my immediate reaction is, 'I wonder what ___ on FYM thinks of this." I know that no matter how discouraging the news may be, I'm not experiencing it and reacting to it alone. This is the reaction I've always had with U2...sometimes just the thought that they're all out there, walking (and flying) around the same world I am and somewhere they're lighting up the world by just being around. It's a situation that won't last forever, but just having them around, even at a time like now, far between albums and tours, comforts me immedsely and gives me hope. it really is like a "miracle drug". And that's what it's all about, really. Community, and the sense that we're all in this together. I remember the Katrina thread. Seeing what I saw on TV every day, and then just haivng a place to "come" to and endure the tragedy every day even though I was far away from the events, made it endurable. Heck, to my Turkish friend out there (if he is still around) I even fondly remember the brief spat we had about the Turkish author who dared to mention Armenians...

I know this is a somewhat sobering, even bleak, view, but my life's been bleak lately. Since my mother's suicide 3 days before Halloween last year, I have been on the Net a lot less, as I struggle to deal with my own Katrina-like aftermath, which the man who used to be my stepfather has not made any easier, for my sister or I. I expected my life to at least stabilize in the 7 months since, but this has not been so. I have not wanted to burden any of you with my personal problems. On the other hand, it was on this site (though not on FYM) that I "met" the person who is one of two or three that have my life bearable over the past few months. Truly a Godsend. I've become more of a lurker here, I admit. I haven't wanted it that way....And talking about my favorite subject, the War, would make it worse....(three weeks before, I had been staring up at Edge from 10 feet away at Madison Square Garden, how strange....) But like I said, all of you have been a great comfort.

I'm sorry I can't say more, but I think that in terms of the community, you can alla gree. Thank you all so much...even the people I don't agree with, you are very insightful. I have been on this site for 2 1/2 yrs (I thinK) and here for maybe a year. I don't regret it a bunch.

Really, I say....God (or Goddess, or whatever Diety you worship....). bless you all.

 

[nathan1977]

In a lot of ways, FYM is like being back in college again. (I went to a pretty progressive university.) I've enjoyed the rigors of intellectual debates, the personal moments that fuse those discussions with humanity, and the opportunity to grow from being challenged. While I can't say that all of my perspectives have changed, I can say that they have certainly expanded.

I think some of the things I've learned have included the brokenness we all have -- the baggage we all carry. Let's face it -- so many of our posts are based on our own experience. I've hopefully learned to be more respectful -- to be mindful of the fact that my words can sometimes communicate more than I mean them to.

Thanks guys.

Now back to the bloodbath!

 

[coemgen]

I like to visit this forum because I learn a lot from the opinions and the debates from others... My opinions aren't very valueable (because I live in the bubble of my childish dreams ) but it is good to hear intelligent thoughts about important issues, and see the different faces of each one of them.

Muggsy, your opinions are just as important as everyone else's. We'd love to hear your perspective.

 

[bonoman]

Though I dont post here much anymore, because Im so busy, I still tend to drop by daily and read what is going on. I dont like to get involved with a discusion if Im unable to answer back.

I've been coming here for 6 years, Jesus, 6 years! Man its been a long time. There have been people that have been and gone and come back then left then returned, but all in all this board is something special. It has that feeling of a private members club, a cool-progresive-say-whatever-you-want type attitude. And no subject is off limits.

The thing that has stuck with me forever with regards to FYM happened about 4 years ago or so.

I think melon was new here and was trying to enlighten FYM on the homophobia that exists in the western world. Me a young know it all took him to task. Trying to use the same tired excuses of why homosexuality was evil, he ripped me apart. I still remember him going bananas on me and me getting pissed off. I thought and thought about it, until finally i was down at the bar with my old man and the conversation came up about gay marriage, and me with my infinate knowledge(ha) decided to pipe up. I used the same arguements i did with melon, and my Dad looked over to me and said 'what the fuck do you care, they arent asking to get married in your Church' and i just shut-up and thought about the thread that melon started. It wasnt long after that I aquired a friend that was lesbian, me not thinking she was a lesbian hit on her, didnt work out, but now I really know what melon had to go through because I can see it with my own eyes in my best friend.

For that one thing I have been swayed, and many others, I am as grateful for this place as anyone.

Thanks, melon.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The thing that has stuck with me forever with regards to FYM happened about 4 years ago or so.

I think melon was new here and was trying to enlighten FYM on the homophobia that exists in the western world. Me a young know it all took him to task. Trying to use the same tired excuses of why homosexuality was evil, he ripped me apart. I still remember him going bananas on me and me getting pissed off. I thought and thought about it, until finally i was down at the bar with my old man and the conversation came up about gay marriage, and me with my infinate knowledge(ha) decided to pipe up. I used the same arguements i did with melon, and my Dad looked over to me and said 'what the fuck do you care, they arent asking to get married in your Church' and i just shut-up and thought about the thread that melon started. It wasnt long after that I aquired a friend that was lesbian, me not thinking she was a lesbian hit on her, didnt work out, but now I really know what melon had to go through because I can see it with my own eyes in my best friend.

That's great, thanks for sharing that

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Muggsy, your opinions are just as important as everyone else's

Yes they are, don't ever think they aren't muggsy

I love how you said you live in the bubble of your childish dreams, I do in some ways too. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I just wanted to add a thank you to everyone who listens and who talks. As frustrating as we all find this place, we still enjoy it enough to come back.

Special thanks to the Marthas', B'sS, MrsS and BVS.