Former Gay Christian Educator Fights Homosexuality Issues at Schools

[Macfistowannabe]

Oddly enough, I can agree to that Pax.

 

[Dreadsox]

Didn't mean to make anyone barf, basically wanted a few opinions of this guy's main cause - to bring solutions to how homosexuals are treated in schools, from the perspective of someone who's struggled with these kinds of feelings. Somehow, all this ex-gay talk got so political. Yuck.

If you wanted to focus on making a better environment in schools for gay and lesbian students there are THOUSANDS of other articles, research papers, and ideas on the web that are not directed by or guided by ex-gays.

It is not my role as an educator to educate about repent and die, since it mentions that in the originally posted article. It is also not my role as teacher to help students find a way to stop being homosexual.

Clearly since homosexuality is not considered to be a psychological disorder by any credible psychologist, why would I as an educator want to teach a curriculum that would imply there is something wrong with being who they are. Wouldn;t that be doing more harm than good?

No, I am not buying into the idea that this thread was started with any other cause. Sorry

 

[Angela Harlem]

Where is the scholarly evidence of this guy's belief that all homosexuals are the same, can be 'reformed', experience similar grief/problems/esteem & peer issues etc?

Seriously, this bullshit comes from both sides. Show me 2 homosexual men who are the same and I will shut my mouth forever. But last time I checked, they were as individual as the rest of us. Each side, either for gay rights or those who are uncomfortable with these gay issues, need to stop these convenient blanket typecasts. Not all homosexual men are any one thing. Knowing some wont make it true, not knowing some wont make hatred justified. There is no absolute. They're as human and faulted and as uniquely wonderful as the rest of us. This isn't any kind of step toward equality. Constantly focusing on one aspect of anyone's self is never going to get us taking everyone as they are.
"I have 3 gay friends so I know.." is as bad as "I am a reformed homosexual and therefore would like to help all of them with..." None of us know. It's as stupid and pointless as saying one knows Christians or blondes or school teachers. We're all different. We cant let it stop us from trying to reach equality by truly believing that differences aren't the problem. They aren't a problem.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I don't ask anyone to agree or even approve to everything he stands for. Basically, I wanted to post an article that wouldn't make the mainstream headlines for whatever reason that would be. We're so used to the same perspective over and over again, why not something a little different? That is the cause.

 

[Dreadsox]

Fine, I will take you at your word, you wanted a dialogue....

I responded above.....and I will add the APA statement about programs that lead people from being "gay" to becoming "ex-gay"

[Q]"Reparative Therapy"
"Reparative therapy," also known as conversion therapy, is a term that is used to describe treatment attempts to change a person from a homosexual orientation to a heterosexual orientation. There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of "reparative therapy" as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989).

There are a few reports in the literature of efforts to use psychotherapeutic and counseling techniques to treat persons troubled by their homosexuality who desire to become heterosexual; however, results have not been conclusive, nor have they been replicated. There is no evidence that any treatment can change a homosexual person's deep seated sexual feelings for others of the same sex.

Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so. [/Q]

http://www.psych.org/public_info/homose~1.cfm

And from 1997:

[Q]RESOLUTION ON APPROPRIATE THERAPEUTIC RESPONSES TO SEXUAL ORIENTATION

[Adopted by the American Psychological Association Council of Representatives, August 14, 1997.]

Whereas societal ignorance and prejudice about same gender sexual orientation put some gay, lesbian, bisexual and questioning individuals at risk for presenting for 'conversion' treatment due to family or social coercion and/or lack of information (Haldeman, 1994);

Whereas children and youth experience significant pressure to conform with sexual norms, particularly from their peers;

Whereas children and youth often lack adequate legal protection from coercive treatment;

Whereas some mental health professionals advocate treatments of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people based on the premise that homosexuality is a mental disorder (e.g., Socarides et al, 1997);

Whereas the ethics, efficacy, benefits, and potential for harm of therapies that seek to reduce or eliminate same-gender sexual orientation are under extensive debate in the professional literature and the popular media (Davison, 1991; Haldeman, 1994; Wall Street Journal, 1997);

Therefore, be it resolved, That APA affirms the following principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation:

That homosexuality is not a mental disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 1973); and
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[Q]That the American Psychological Association 'urges all mental health professionals to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientation' (Conger, 1975, p. 633); and

Therefore, be it resolved, That the American Psychological Association opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, and mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based in ignorance or unfounded beliefs about sexual orientation.[/Q]

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbpolicy/orient.html


If the APA is not willing to run programs and consider them WRONG, why would you want classroom teachers running programs to do something trained professionals willl not do.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Dreadsox: Clearly since homosexuality is not considered to be a psychological disorder by any credible psychologist, why would I as an educator want to teach a curriculum that would imply there is something wrong with being who they are. Wouldn;t that be doing more harm than good?

APA: Whereas some mental health professionals advocate treatments of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people based on the premise that homosexuality is a mental disorder (e.g., Socarides et al, 1997).

So "credibility" has to come from those who support your views in your case. You did state "clearly it's not a disorder by any CREDIBLE psychologist..." So it still depends on your opinion, or does it?

 

[Angela Harlem]

I don't ask anyone to agree or even approve to everything he stands for. Basically, I wanted to post an article that wouldn't make the mainstream headlines for whatever reason that would be. We're so used to the same perspective over and over again, why not something a little different? That is the cause.

I can understand that. I just think most of these, no matter what the perspective, kind of miss the point in some way. It's all just opinion in the end, what we all think here.

 

[pax]

I think the APA is pretty damn credible. And I think most people would agree. You're talking an organization led by the most accomplished, schooled, experienced psychologists in the country, and you're not willing to say they're credible? That their credibility is merely an opinion?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I can understand that. I just think most of these, no matter what the perspective, kind of miss the point in some way. It's all just opinion in the end, what we all think here.

Thanks Angela, I do think that most of our disagreements on FYM are based on views, rather than facts.

 

[Dreadsox]

Dreadsox: Clearly since homosexuality is not considered to be a psychological disorder by any credible psychologist, why would I as an educator want to teach a curriculum that would imply there is something wrong with being who they are. Wouldn;t that be doing more harm than good?

APA: Whereas some mental health professionals advocate treatments of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people based on the premise that homosexuality is a mental disorder (e.g., Socarides et al, 1997).

So "credibility" has to come from those who support your views in your case. You did state "clearly it's not a disorder by any CREDIBLE psychologist..." So it still depends on your opinion, or does it?

Cute.

SO let me understand this....any source I use is biased because it supports my point of view. You ask for sources and I quote them.

Yes, I believe that the American Psychological Association is more credible than the person your article is about.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I think the APA is pretty damn credible. And I think most people would agree. You're talking an organization led by the most accomplished, schooled, experienced psychologists in the country, and you're not willing to say they're credible? That their credibility is merely an opinion?

I was comparing a statement that Dreadsox made - not that I really want to single him/her out - but for clarity's sake, with something the APA said. The two sentences didn't match very well. I do see that it's very difficult for anyone to battle homosexual feelings, but I do think it can be overcome, if they fight their struggles extremely hard.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Cute.

SO let me understand this....any source I use is biased because it supports my point of view. You ask for sources and I quote them.

Yes, I believe that the American Psychological Association is more credible than the person your article is about.

If you read my quotations, the APA claimed that some professionals do base it on a mental disorder. You don't exactly have to believe they should do it that way, but my point was that these professional psychologists must seem uncredible in your point of view.

 

[Dreadsox]

If you read my quotations, the APA claimed that some professionals do base it on a mental disorder. You don't exactly have to believe they should do it that way, but my point was that these professional psychologists must seem uncredible in your point of view.

And the THEREFORE IT IS RESOLVED part is the response of the APA to this.

It would seem to me that the THEREFORE STATEMENT clarifies their belief.

 

[Dreadsox]

Just curious, other than making money off of his book and his program, what are Chad Thompson's credentials in the area of psychology.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

And the THEREFORE IT IS RESOLVED part is the response of the APA to this.

It would seem to me that the THEREFORE STATEMENT clarifies their belief.

Okay, so if it's not a mental disorder, what is it?

 

[Dreadsox]

SO you believe it is a mental disorder?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

No I don't, I don't know what to think of it.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

This is pretty sad stats though:

One study says the average lifespan of a homosexual is 42 years; another study says 43 percent of male homosexuals reported having more than 500 partners during their lifetime. For the purposes of this article, I don't want to take the time to dissect the research methods that were used to draw these conclusions. I will only say that, while some of the findings in such studies are true, throwing these numbers around while talking to someone who is homosexual will only reinforce, in their minds, the fact that you have stereotyped them. Can you imagine telling your son or daughter that that heterosexual activity is intrinsically wrong because America has a divorce rate estimated at 43 percent, or because three of every ten women killed in the United States die at the hands of a husband or boyfriend?

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/135/22.0.html

 

[indra]

No I don't, I don't know what to think of it.

Ever think that is just is?

Ever think that it just is the same as heterosexuality is to a straight person?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I don't see how anyone can be absolutely sure it's inborne or hereditary, generally speaking. Sure, it's who they're attracted to, but the question I have, is when does this begin? Day 1? 5 years old? 13 years old?

 

[indra]

I don't see how anyone can be absolutely sure it's inborne or hereditary, generally speaking. Sure, it's who they're attracted to, but the question I have, is when does this begin? Day 1? 5 years old? 13 years old?

Probably about the same time being heterosexual (I'm assuming you are) began for you. I don't think there's anything intrinsically weird about homosexuality...there are so many differences in each and every person...it's just one of those differences.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

It is not my role as an educator to educate about repent and die, since it mentions that in the originally posted article.

If you read the article again, you will see that he doesn't preach repent or die, he speaks out against that approach.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Probably about the same time being heterosexual (I'm assuming you are) began for you. I don't think there's anything intrinsically weird about homosexuality...there are so many differences in each and every person...it's just one of those differences.

Yes yes, but out of 46 chromosomes, what's the ratio of passing a "gay chromosome?"

 

[Dreadsox]

If you read the article again, you will see that he doesn't preach repent or die, he speaks out against that approach.

Ummmmm.......

[Q]Thompson said, “We speak about the importance of ‘Repent or die’ and that kind of thing,” [/Q]

These are his words.

 

[indra]

Yes yes, but out of 46 chromosomes, what's the ratio of passing a "gay chromosome?"

I don't think there is a "gay" chromosome, just as there isn't a "straight" one. There are chromosomes which determine gender, but not what one does with his or her...umm...parts.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Let's back up a little...

--------------------------------------------------

Thompson said it is more common for Christians to address homosexuality as sin and only emphasize repentance instead of deeply looking into the actual struggles that gay and lesbian youth are facing and reaching out to help change their sexual orientation.

Thompson said, “We speak about the importance of ‘Repent or die’ and that kind of thing,” but he said even though Christian community opposes the homosexual lifestyle, it is time for the church to acknowledge and combat the “legitimate struggles being faced by gay and lesbian youth.”

According to Thompson, the booklet, which is the first publication from Inqueery, offers an unbiased look at research on finding “gay gene” and examines a number of theories about the development of sexual orientation. The booklet also discuses the potential of change for homosexual students who wish to change and at the same time it encourages treating homosexuals and ex-homosexuals with respect.

--------------------------------------------------

He's basically saying, let's take a more loving approach to those who struggle with these feelings that aren't accepted by all members of society. He even said banning gay marriage is not the answer. His message is, let's cut the crap, and respect their individuality.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Staying out of this little discussion here and just going to give a to Dreadsox-sorry to hear that about your friend . May he rest in peace.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I am sorry about your friend, too.

 

[BVS]

This is pretty sad stats though:

One study says the average lifespan of a homosexual is 42 years; another study says 43 percent of male homosexuals reported having more than 500 partners during their lifetime. For the purposes of this article, I don't want to take the time to dissect the research methods that were used to draw these conclusions. I will only say that, while some of the findings in such studies are true, throwing these numbers around while talking to someone who is homosexual will only reinforce, in their minds, the fact that you have stereotyped them. Can you imagine telling your son or daughter that that heterosexual activity is intrinsically wrong because America has a divorce rate estimated at 43 percent, or because three of every ten women killed in the United States die at the hands of a husband or boyfriend?

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/135/22.0.html

First off I wouldn't use a Christian organization as your source for these types of numbers. We know where they stand, I'd look for something a little more unbiased and maybe one that's known for scientific study.

With that being said yes their lifespans are probably a lot shorter. It's a fact that stress takes many years off of your life. Living a life where the majority tell you you're wrong, having to hide your identity, not being able to settle down with the one you love in the comforts of a recognized union my life would be a lot shorter as well.

 

[BVS]

I do see that it's very difficult for anyone to battle homosexual feelings, but I do think it can be overcome, if they fight their struggles extremely hard.

Why should they battle them? Just because someone interpretted the Bible a certain way for you a long time ago? You still haven't answered the question of could you overcome your sexuality?