For all the opponents of the death penalty....read this

[Justin24]

Contradicting myself???????? Does it seem that way to you. Guess what they took a person freedom away so take there away and execute them for the crime of Murder.

 

[phillyfan26]

Contradicting myself???????? Does it seem that way to you. Guess what they took a person freedom away so take there away and execute them for the crime of Murder.

Read his post to find out what I think, because I agree with him.

And for the last part, I completely don't understand what you are saying. Take there away? Put them in prison in case you go back and find out you were wrong. You never know for sure.

 

[Justin24]

Philly I just want to tell you that I hope we can remain friends even though we have opposing views.

 

[phillyfan26]

Philly I just want to tell you that I hope we can remain friends even though we have opposing views.

Sure, I don't hold anything against anyone.

 

[melon]

If you think that the death penalty is the panacea for all the world's crime problems, you're going to be out of luck. Criminology has not shown the death penalty to be a deterrent to violent crime.

And while, yes, the suffering of the victim's family cannot be underestimated, you have neglected the suffering of the murderer's family, who may not look at the execution of their loved one lightly.

In history, there's, at least, one prominent, if overlooked, example of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

In May 1887, his eldest brother Alexander Ulyanov was hanged for participation in a plot (bomb attack) threatening the life of Tsar Alexander III. This radicalized Lenin. His official Soviet biographies have this event as central to his revolutionary exploits. A famous painting by Belousov, We will follow a different path, reprinted in millions of Soviet textbooks, depicted young Lenin and his mother grieving the loss of his elder brother. The phrase "We will follow a different path" meant that Lenin chose a Marxist approach for a popular revolution, instead of anarchistic, individualistic methods.

It does beg the question as to whether communism would have ever been succeeded in Russia had they let one man rot in prison, rather than executed as a martyr.

And, philosophically, that's how I see it. "No bad deed goes unpunished." So I don't see the point in serving one murder followed by another.

Melon

 

[BonosSaint]

Justin,

Execution is murder whatever spin you want to put on it.

But I sympathize. Should someone I love be murdered, I would easily flip the switch, give the lethal injection, knowing full well I was guilty of murder and not giving a flying fuck. Which is exactly why I shouldn't be allowed to make that decision. My desire for revenge shouldn't decide how society behaves.

You are right. The victim is almost nowhere in this equation. Except for the adnauseum coverage of the murders of select pretty white people, the victim is almost an afterthought, if that.
But I think you will also find the murderer is not much in the equation also. I suspect that many of the death penalty opponents wouldn't care one way or the other if the murderer was killed in the prison population or killed by a grieving loved one of the victim. It's not general sympathy for the killer. It is discomfort for the role of society in a death.

I followed two death penalty cases very closely--Gary Gilmore and Timothy McVeigh (2 OK looking white guys--I guess I have biases of my own). I believed both were guilty. I believed that the death penalty was appropriate in both cases. And you are right, I was given more information about them than any of their victims. (And I believe that we should be given information about those who are going to die in our name--even though it would be much easier on us. Sanctioned death should never be painless to those sanctioning it.) As their executions approached, I felt increasingly uncomfortable--knowing their last hours, knowing the time they would die--for the McVeigh case, being given running commentary on the radio--a play by play, if you will--of the actual execution. I felt sick.

The same way I feel sick when I hear about any execution carried out, no matter how heinous the crime. I feel nothing when they are sentenced to die. Just as the moment approaches, when the actual execution is carried out. It lessens us somehow.

God, I am conflicted I hear some of the stories of what these people did and I want to kill them myself. I read the story on which this thread was based (which ironically would have never carried a death penalty) and I grieve for that child and think no punishment could be enough for these people. I am a revenge seeker. I know that about myself. Perhaps I want my society to be better than I am.

I believe some of these human monsters deserve to die. I do not know that we deserve to kill them. I have no conflict about them. I only have conflict about us.

Just don't fool yourself that execution isn't murder. The blood is on your hands too. You'll have to be willing to accept that. Maybe you are.

 

[Diemen]

Contradicting myself???????? Does it seem that way to you.

It doesn't just seem that way, it is that way. It is a fact that you have contradicted yourself more than once in this thread.

Or did you not see my last reply to you, or Martha's replies to you, or phillyfan's replies to you....?

 

[Justin24]

Well I don't believe I contradict myself

 

[phillyfan26]

Here is Diemen's post in its entirety if you haven't gone back to read it:

Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
I never called it soft??



Justin you are all over the place here. If your argument had any degree of sound logic, then maybe we would've gotten somewhere by now.


Quote:
Why not he took someone elses. I am not trying to play god.

...

HE played God HE TOOK SOMEONES LIFE!!!!!!!!!!




Quote:
Why shouldn't he suffer? Like he made a family or families suffer? He/she made his/her victims suffer.

...

IT IS NOT REVENGE!!!




Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
My opposition to the death penalty does not mean I have a soft spot for criminals.

Originally posted by Justin24
Well it seems like it if u dont want a person that took 1 life or many lives.

...

You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.



I'll spare you the rest of your contradictions, but I have this question: If, as you say, a life sentence is still a form of execution, then how on Earth could I possibly be soft on crime if I support life sentences?

Look, if down in your gut you feel that murderers should be killed, then fine, that's what you feel. But when you can't even debate it without contradicting yourself left and right, it doesn't exactly lend your position much credibility.

 

[Justin24]

Here is Diemen's post in its entirety if you haven't gone back to read it:

Quote:

I'll spare you the rest of your contradictions, but I have this question: If, as you say, a life sentence is still a form of execution, then how on Earth could I possibly be soft on crime if I support life sentences?

Because this form of Execution is not suffering more like a crappy cruise.

And if blood is on my hands because a Murderer is executed then so be it. I will answer for it.

 

[Diemen]

Well I don't believe I contradict myself

How is this not contradiction:

Why not he took someone elses. I am not trying to play god.

...

He played God HE TOOK SOMEONE'S LIFE!!!!!!!!!!

Look, I don't want to pick on you all thread long, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim one thing and then, when it suits you or when you find it's not helping you that much, claim the complete opposite and expect to hold any credibility as a result.

If you can't logically defend your position, or even take into account the counter-arguments being presented, then you're not even debating, you're just ranting.

 

[Justin24]

Couldn't we say that Abortion is a type of murder since a life is being taken away. Yet many will agree that it's not since? Why not put the child up for adoption.

But You know what I wont tell a woman what to do.

 

[Diemen]

For crying out loud!

Because this form of Execution is not suffering more like a crappy cruise.

And if blood is on my hands because a Murderer is executed then so be it. I will answer for it.

A crappy cruise is similar to life in prison??

Justin, that's just pathetic.

 

[Justin24]

How can that be pathetic. There stuck in Jail like being at see with no where to go. They have ammenities, just like a cruise. And no one dies, unless you get food poisoning or the ship sinks.

 

[martha]

There stuck in Jail like being at see with no where to go.

Now you're just being lame.

 

[namkcuR]

I am 1000% against capital punishment and I always will be.

I am going to back up my opinion with facts.

Fact: No matter what you say, the primary purpose of prison is not now, nor has it EVER been, to punish the guilty party. Prison is a quarantine - its primary and fundemental purpose is to keep criminals out of society. As long as those criminals don't get to have the freedom of being part of society, prison has served its purpose. Prison has nothing to do with punishment. The punishment comes from within when the criminal finally(if ever) starts feeling remorseful, and when the guilt finally(if ever) starts tormenting the criminal.

Fact: The justice system is based soley and completely on the capabilities of the human mind to interpret and judge and, as such, the justice system will ALWAYS be subject to human error. That is what makes us human, the fact that we are not now, nor have we ever been, nor we will we ever be, perfect. There will always be human error and, as long as that is true, there will NEVER be any such thing as being 100% sure of a person's guilt short of having a video recording of the person commiting the crime. Because a video is not human. It's a machine. Videos don't have error. See how that works? All of that said, if just ONE innocent person has been put to death, OR EVEN, if there is the potential for just ONE innocent person to be put to death in the future, nothing more needs to be said in arguement against capital punishment. However, I will say more anyway.

Now I will venture into things that are a little more based on opinion.

If someone is murdered, their family and friends will be devestated. If SOMEONE is murdered. That means not only the victim of the crime, but the murderer as well when he is put to death by the state. A person who commits murder still has a mother and father and brother and sister of their own. If you take away those peoples' son/daughter and brother/sister, you are punishing them. And THEY are innocent people. THEY did nothing wrong. EVERY time someone is executed by the state, innocent people are being punished because somewhere, that murderer's mother is crying just as hard as the murderer's victim's mother is crying. THAT is not ok. If you stick the murderer in prison for the rest of his/her life, then at least the mother, who did NOTHING wrong, can still see her son/daughter. I don't have a kid, but if I did, and that kid was murdered, I'd tell the court not to put the murderer to death, because that murderer might have a father who loves him somewhere(not always, but sometimes), and I wouldn't want to wish anyone the pain I've just experienced. I know some of you will say I will change my mind when I do have kids of my own, but I don't think I will. And what if the murderer has a son/daugher? There is NO justification for taking an innocent kid's parent away. There's no justification for a murderer doing it, and there's no justification for the state doing it. NONE.

When you execute a criminal, you are putting THEIR family through unneccessary pain, you are NEVER making the family of the victim feel any better, and you NEVER deterring other criminals.

These are my views on why capital punishment is barbaric and purposeless, and I really don't see anything changing them.

And please don't tell me that a murderer doesn't deserve to breathe the same air you breathe. When people say that, it just strikes be as very holier than thou and pretentious.

 

[Justin24]

SO I give a comparison and I am being lame???

 

[Justin24]

Ok then I don't want to see people complain when we have to build more jails than schools. Or how about since you are all against the Death Penalty we find a deserted Island and put them there. Kind of like Lost

 

[Justin24]

If someone is murdered, their family and friends will be devestated. If SOMEONE is murdered. That means not only the victim of the crime, but the murderer as well when he is put to death by the state. A person who commits murder still has a mother and father and brother and sister of their own. If you take away those peoples' son/daughter and brother/sister, you are punishing them. And THEY are innocent people. THEY did nothing wrong. EVERY time someone is executed by the state, innocent people are being punished because somewhere, that murderer's mother is crying just as hard as the murderer's victim's mother is crying. THAT is not ok. If you stick the murderer in prison for the rest of his/her life, then at least the mother, who did NOTHING wrong, can still see her son/daughter. I don't have a kid, but if I did, and that kid was murdered, I'd tell the court not to put the murderer to death, because that murderer might have a father who loves him somewhere(not always, but sometimes), and I wouldn't want to wish anyone the pain I've just experienced. I know some of you will say I will change my mind when I do have kids of my own, but I don't think I will. And what if the murderer has a son/daugher? There is NO justification for taking an innocent kid's parent away. There's no justification for a murderer doing it, and there's no justification for the state doing it. NONE.

When you execute a criminal, you are putting THEIR family through unneccessary pain, you are NEVER making the family of the victim feel any better, and you NEVER deterring other criminals.

Maybe the parents should have been better parents. Now there child must face the consiquences of there deeds. There is no such thing as people taking responability anymore.

 

[Diemen]

Your statement is pathetic, and if you can't see the difference between a bad cruise and life in prison, then you don't know what you're talking about at this point.

Lifers hardly have amenities just like a cruise. Oh yes, they can use the bathroom, or even a gym or basketball court. But the big thing you seem to be forgetting here is that they have absolutely no freedom. Their life is dictated to them on someone else's terms. What they can and cannot do is determined by someone else. What and where they eat is determined by someone else. How they spend their day is determined by someone else.

And they don't get to go back to to their regular lives after a while (like you would on a cruise). This is their life for the rest of their days. They get no time-outs, no vacations, no days off from this. Every day for the rest of lives is spent in the confines of prison, with no chance of ever getting out again, no chance of ever knowing a regular day of freedom to choose what they want to do, spend a day with friends or family, go to a park, lounge around the living room with friends, etc.

But you're right. It's just like a cruise.

 

[martha]

SO I give a comparison and I am being lame???

Yes. Life in prison compared to a cruise!?!? That's a stupid thing to say, and it's shit like that that makes absolutely no one give any credence to anything you say anymore. You rant on, saying crap like that, not really answering anybody, making no sense at all....

 

[BonosSaint]

You know I gave serious consideration to your underlying point of view. That was a fucking waste of my time.

You're entitled to your view. I think many hold it.

 

[Diemen]

Ok then I don't want to see people complain when we have to build more jails than schools. Or how about since you are all against the Death Penalty we find a deserted Island and put them there. Kind of like Lost

Do you even understand what logic is?

 

[Justin24]

Your statement is pathetic, and if you can't see the difference between a bad cruise and life in prison, then you don't know what you're talking about at this point.

Lifers hardly have amenities just like a cruise. Oh yes, they can use the bathroom, or even a gym or basketball court. But the big thing you seem to be forgetting here is that they have absolutely no freedom. Their life is dictated to them on someone else's terms. What they can and cannot do is determined by someone else. What and where they eat is determined by someone else. How they spend their day is determined by someone else.

And they don't get to go back to to their regular lives after a while (like you would on a cruise). This is their life for the rest of their days. They get no time-outs, no vacations, no days off from this. Every day for the rest of lives is spent in the confines of prison, with no chance of ever getting out again, no chance of ever knowing a regular day of freedom to choose what they want to do, spend a day with friends or family, go to a park, lounge around the living room with friends, etc.

But you're right. It's just like a cruise.

And Guess what a family will never see there child again. I want you to go tell a family that executing him is the wrong choice. Do you have the Balls for that?? Since you probably live by ancient manuscripts if it told you to that execution is ok then I am sure you would be for it.

 

[martha]

Since you probably live by ancient manuscripts if it told you to that execution is ok then I am sure you would be for it.

Where do you get these lines? Is someone writing them for you?

 

[Justin24]

My logic of thinking is you that you could give a shit about a person that was killed because your all to busy in front of a prison with candles and signs with pictures saying Would Jesus do this?

 

[Justin24]

Where do you get these lines? Is someone writing them for you?

You get your thinking of not taking ones life because he took someone elses from the Bible. But if it said it was permissable then you would.

 

[martha]

You get your thinking of not taking ones life because he took someone elses from the Bible. But if it said it was permissable then you would.

You know I'm not a Christian, don't you? And your original ridiculous assmption was directed and Dieman, not me.

 

[Justin24]

Yes. Life in prison compared to a cruise!?!? That's a stupid thing to say, and it's shit like that that makes absolutely no one give any credence to anything you say anymore. You rant on, saying crap like that, not really answering anybody, making no sense at all....

Is everything you say in life, supported by your Credence or what other people think of you.

 

[Justin24]

You know I'm not a Christian, don't you? And your original ridiculous assmption was directed and Dieman, not me.

I didn't know you were not a christian. And I have nothing against that.