For all the opponents of the death penalty....read this

[Justin24]

And I'm tired of some of your arguments. If you keep putting up a fight, you're going to have to get used to these arguments. Some people believe in human rights.

And the whole point is that people do make mistakes. If they were guilty, they suffer life in prison with the same exact scenario everyday, nothing to look forward to, no choices. A loss of freedom. And if they're found innocent, we let them go.

Nothing is 100%, and you act like it is, and then say you don't feel guilty about people who had to deal with that? I don't understand it.

When a serial killer murders 12 people is that a mistake??

A person goes into a conviniance store robs the place and then decides to kill the clerk so there are no witnesses is that a mistake?

 

[phillyfan26]

When a serial killer murders 12 people is that a mistake??

A person goes into a conviniance store robs the place and then decides to kill the clerk so there are no witnesses is that a mistake?

If you get the wrong person.

But are crimes always that simple? Rarely, if ever. Leads to more mistakes.

 

[BVS]

So if nothing is 100% accurate then why not let Manson go? Richard Ramirez? Hell to bad we killed Gacy cause nothing is 100% accurate

You've asked this before, look at my answer back then...it hasn't changed.

 

[BVS]

A person goes into a conviniance store robs the place and then decides to kill the clerk so there are no witnesses is that a mistake?

And what if he's framed? We can play the what if game all night, the fact is, it's not an absolute system, therefore we can't have absolute punishment. Simple as that.

 

[Liesje]

So if nothing is 100% accurate then why not let Manson go? Richard Ramirez? Hell to bad we killed Gacy cause nothing is 100% accurate

You don't "let them go". Life without the possibility of parole is par for the course when it comes to sentencing first degree murders.

The problem with assuming 100% accuracy is that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the highest level of proof required for criminal convictions. 100% accuracy cannot be achieved, and is not even factored into the picture when it comes to conviction and sentencing. If you're comfortable sentencing someone to death as long as there's 100% accuracy, then find me a courtroom where this actually occurs, where the gray area between reasonable doubt and 100% accuracy is eliminated...

 

[Justin24]

It's not an absolute system,

Murder is though.

And let's say if someone is framed but you feel he is guilty. And he spends the rest of his/her life in prison then there is no difference, just that he/she dies a very slow death by age.

 

[adrball]

I've really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread.

I've got commend the families of murder victims who then push for Life without Parole for those found guilty as an alternative to the death penalty.

If anyone murdered my son I think my own initial (maybe irrational) reaction would be for revenge. I wouldn't care about the consequences so don't think the Dealth Penalty provides any additional degree of deterrent over a Life Sentence.

I'm also quite nervous about the Victims family having a say about what the punishment for those found guilty should be. This should be left to those free of any bias. They don't have any say in any other part of the court-case process.

I don't really buy in to this God-Is-Judge idea. I'm not a believer in any way which is probably why. But at least everyone agrees that Society exists so 'judging-ourselves' is probably the best option we've got.

So I do I agree or disagree with the Death Penalty? Well you are either INNOCENT or GUILTY (not found innocent or guilty, but 'actually' guilty, And from the outcome you can either be FREED, get LIFE SENTENCE or get DEATH PENALTY. So there are 6 possible outcomes.

1. Innocent and Freed
2. Guilty and Life Sentence
3. Guilty and Death
4. Guilty and Freed
5. Innocent and Death
6. Innocent and Life Sentence

(1) Personally I really happy if they are innocent and freed!
(2/3) If there are guilty I don't really care what happens to this scum.
(4) Guilty and freed I'm uncomfortable about...what happens if they reoffend? But this a question about the effectiveness of the jury process and not whether you in favour or not of the death penalty.
(5)Innocent and Death. A nightmare outcome. An innocent person dying as a result of the death penalty is equally as bad as an innocent person dying as a result of a crime.
(6) Innocent and Life Sentence. So the jury get it wrong but at least they could be released at a later time.

So for me it's a question of balancing the risk of getting it wrong against being seen to punish the crime. Both Life and Death sentences are worthy punishment. But only by using the the life sentence exlusively do you give yourself the option of reversing an incorrect guilty verdict.

I'm against the death penalty for that reason.

 

[BVS]

Murder is though.

And let's say if someone is framed but you feel he is guilty. And he spends the rest of his/her life in prison then there is no difference, just that he/she dies a very slow death by age.

This is a very unfortunate side of the fallable system we work with, but wouldn't sending an innocent man to death be worse. At least this innocent man got to keep contact with his family.

 

[Justin24]

Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime. You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.

 

[BVS]

Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime. You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.

Don't kid yourself, it's revenge. Look at everyone who is for the death penalty in here, each person added an emotional aspect to their reasoning. It's revenge.

And no, a life sentence is not execution.

 

[martha]

So if nothing is 100% accurate then why not let Manson go? Richard Ramirez? Hell to bad we killed Gacy cause nothing is 100% accurate

Another problem Justin. It's always all or nothing with you. We say we're against the death penalty, and so you say we want to release mass murderers. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE. This is why people have problems with discussing things with you: you twist their words to suit your point.

There are degrees of meaning and belief. Just because I think the death penalty is no way for a civilized nation to deal with its criminals, doesn't mean I think we should "let Manson go."

 

[adrball]

Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime.

Getting it wrong should also be a most severe crime. I'd prefer to avoid the possibility.

 

[Justin24]

Another problem Justin. It's always all or nothing with you. We say we're against the death penalty, and so you say we want to release mass murderers. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE. This is why people have problems with discussing things with you: you twist their words to suit your point.

There are degrees of meaning and belief. Just because I think the death penalty is no way for a civilized nation to deal with its criminals, doesn't mean I think we should "let Manson go."

So a civilized nation should be like. Oh you killed some one shame on you now you can sit in this cell forever. Just to let you know some of the luxarys while your here include. a mess hall to eat. A yard and gym to work out, a library, congregation area for you to watch TV. If your feeling sick, we have 24 hr medical attention for you. Your cost nothing. Cost to the people outside millions. Enjoy.

 

[Liesje]

Justin, I'm still curious as to how you would reconcile "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" with "100% accuracy and fact". Would you change the level of proof required for criminal convictions? Would you completely restructure the justice system as we know it?

There's more to it than someone murdering someone else and whether or not s/he deserves to die.

Personally, I prefer a justice system that focuses on the rights of individuals in general, and not on extreme punitive sentences for mass murders.

 

[martha]

Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime. You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.

Originally posted by Justin24 [B[Why shouldn't he suffer? Like he made a family or families suffer? He/she made his/her victims suffer.

Which is it? Revenge or punishment?

 

[martha]

So a civilized nation should be like. Oh you killed some one shame on you now you can sit in this cell forever. Just to let you know some of the luxarys while your here include. a mess hall to eat. A yard and gym to work out, a library, congregation area for you to watch TV. If your feeling sick, we have 24 hr medical attention for you. Your cost nothing. Cost to the people outside millions. Enjoy.

 

[BVS]

So a civilized nation should be like. Oh you killed some one shame on you now you can sit in this cell forever. Just to let you know some of the luxarys while your here include. a mess hall to eat. A yard and gym to work out, a library, congregation area for you to watch TV. If your feeling sick, we have 24 hr medical attention for you. Your cost nothing. Cost to the people outside millions. Enjoy.

No a civilized nation should know when there aren't absolutes. A civilized nation knows that no matter how advanced they are, they can't play god. A civilized nation knows it's faults. A civilized nation should never base it's justice on revenge.

 

[martha]

I don't think I can discuss this anymore with someone who refuses to listen, consider, or even think straight.

 

[adrball]

Justin...what's your view if a dead man is later found to be innocent? Oh well, never mind, we'll try to do better next time?

 

[Justin24]

Justin, I'm still curious as to how you would reconcile "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" with "100% accuracy and fact". Would you change the level of proof required for criminal convictions? Would you completely restructure the justice system as we know it?

There's more to it than someone murdering someone else and whether or not s/he deserves to die.

Personally, I prefer a justice system that focuses on the rights of individuals in general, and not on extreme punitive sentences for mass murders.

They should revamp the whole system.

Find out who is really innocent or guilty. The ones who are guilty because all evidence deems them guilty of murder should be executed.

Criminals should not have anyrights, they forfeit them when they kill someone.

 

[Rono]

So a civilized nation should be like. Oh you killed some one shame on you now you can sit in this cell forever. Just to let you know some of the luxarys while your here include. a mess hall to eat. A yard and gym to work out, a library, congregation area for you to watch TV. If your feeling sick, we have 24 hr medical attention for you. Your cost nothing. Cost to the people outside millions. Enjoy.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

 

[Justin24]

No a civilized nation should know when there aren't absolutes. A civilized nation knows that no matter how advanced they are, they can't play god. A civilized nation knows it's faults. A civilized nation should never base it's justice on revenge.

IT IS NOT REVENGE!!! So is it revenge when we lock up a robber who has robbed multiple banks or stores??

 

[Justin24]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

And keeping a person in jail for life will bring down crime?

 

[Justin24]

R.I.P Timothy Titsworth. Born 8th March 1978 Murdered by the state 6th June 2006
Current mood: sad


I felt i wanted to post this in memoriam for my friend. He and I were Neighbours for quite some time we formulated a brother like bond. A TRUE friendship. Over a decade ago my friend took a young womans life. First id like to say i have the deepest sympathy for this woman, her family and friends. I have a weakness for womaen and children so it breaks my heart to hear of any harm being brought upon them. I made this fact clear and known to Timothy but i could see it broke his heart too. Timothy was of the most upbeat guys i know, but when he spoke of this night the pain, the saddness and the regret was just too obvious to ignore. Knowing him as i did I can honestly say that i Feel Timothy was a completly different person when i met him, as opposed to the night he took that young ladies life. He genuinely changed for the better but the state of Texas refused to see that or take that in to account. They never do, they seem to think people dont change for some reason. They condemn us thats it from that day forth, their minds are hell bent on revenge what they call CLOSURE. I wonder if this womans family received any real closure i doubt it, but in all honesty i truely hope so because Timothy was killed in the name of CLOSURE for what he did. Sounds like revenge to me but thats besides the point Whats important is I personally knew Timothy he genuinely regreted what he did, he was a completly different person when they slaughtered him like an animal.

DID HE DESERVE TO PAY FOR WHAT HE DONE? Of course he did, something even he agreed to, he took a human life, he never ever denied that fact, thats something nobody has the right to do. Not even the government.

On this night that my friend took this ladies life he was under the influence of not only cocaine, heroin, L.S.D and marijuana, but alcohol as well, not a good mixture, however it is a mixture that could drive anyone to do anything, and on this night my friend did the unthinkable. The D.A said he played God by taking this womans life, but them taking his is supposed to be alright. What "they" do is somehow different, in their twisted eyes. I dont understand how they can contradict themselfs, so obviously on this level continue to murder human beings and call it justice in the name of closure. Its revenge not Closure. Its anything but justice.

Without those of you who oppose the death penalty this maddness will only continue. Again my heart genuinely goes out to the victims and families. The young lady in question should never have met the fate she did. Even i felt my friend deserved to pay for what he did, but he didnt only pay, he paid the ultimate price with his life. The state of texas made him and his family victims, Murder for Murderm is not the answer it only creates more victims.

Death row Prisoners need your help to bring this maddness to an end not only my friend but to those before and after him.

I strive daily to do all i can to see to it that the death penalty is one day no longer a factor. Watching helplessly as my friend was murdered by the state, helped fuel this fire. I hope my words fuel that same fire within you. We truely need you in this fight!! To stand up out there for whats right, to show these people we are tired of thim adding to the victim count.

I carry memories of my friend with me everyday. I still wish he was here. I miss him and know others do too. His name will live on through me and others I gave him my word on that, i also gave him my words that id strive on, so still i strive in the struggle.

REST IN PEACE TIMOTHY T TITSWORTH AKA 50-50

MUCH LOVE BRO

http://www.myspace.com/freejoshmaxwell

 

[Liesje]

They should revamp the whole system.

Find out who is really innocent or guilty. The ones who are guilty because all evidence deems them guilty of murder should be executed.

Criminals should not have anyrights, they forfeit them when they kill someone.

But everything you're saying only matters after-the-fact, if in fact they are convicted. How do you implement a system where this would be possible?

In a perfect world, yes, only those who are truly guilty are convicted and punished, but having taken courses in law and criminal investigations as well as coming from a family of high ranking law enforcement officials, I know this isn't possible and means nothing as far as the actual preparation for such a case is concerned.

HOW would we achieve what you're proposing? At the tactical level...

 

[BVS]

IT IS NOT REVENGE!!! So is it revenge when we lock up a robber who has robbed multiple banks or stores??

No revenge would be to rob them back.

 

[BVS]

And keeping a person in jail for life will bring down crime?

Is that the point to the death penalty?

 

[Rono]

And keeping a person in jail for life will bring down crime?

Personaly i think deathpanalty will raise heavy crime because the accused is willing to do eveything to keep out of deathrow.


I guess you did not find this :

www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#financial facts

 

[Justin24]

This is going now where. All of us think we are right in our thinking. Some would rather let murders live for 60 years while some of us want them dead now.

"HOW would we achieve what you're proposing? At the tactical level." Fix the Government first.

 

[phillyfan26]

You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.

A few pages back you called it "soft."