Flag burning???

[BVS]

Ok I have a question.

It seems these days burning the US flag is probably the biggest sin one can commit to their country. It use to be that burning the flag was a sign of protest now it will guarantee you a seat in prison.

But here's my question. Years ago, many many years ago I was a boy scout and we were taught that if a flag touches the ground or is torn etc that to properly "bury" the flag your duty was to burn the flag. Now to all you boy scouts out there, am I remembering this wrong or was that the case? Have things changed now?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I did Scouts but we did not have to do much more with the flag than know how to fold it and say mottos for God, Queen and Country.

Are you sure that flag burning will "guarantee you a seat in prison" in the United States. I was under the impression that it was still protected speech.

 

[BVS]

Are you sure that flag burning will "guarantee you a seat in prison" in the United States. I was under the impression that it was still protected speech.

That was partly tongue in cheek given the whole environment of fear we live in today here in the states, but I may be wrong but there was a push for a law. I'm not sure if it passed or not.

 

[BonosSaint]

I know they were considering a constitutional amendment for it along with all the other silly amendments they were considering.

 

[verte76]

That's right, they considered an amendment to the Constitution to make it possible to send flag-burners to jail. I personally deplore flag-burning, but I think it should be protected as freedom of speech.

 

[Maggie1]

As far as I know, you cant' burn a flag as part of a protest.
It is reccomended to burn a flag to dispose of it properly. This would prevent any misteatment such as it being left in a landfill somewhere or in garbage can.

 

[melon]

Yes, you can burn the flag in protest all you want. It's constitutionally protected speech, despite what any conservative will try and tell you otherwise.

But here's the deal: it happens maybe once or twice a decade in the U.S. Outside the U.S. like in the Middle East countries, it will continue to happen. When that amendment came up, it was the epitome of "diversion legislation," because our Republican legislators are a bunch of morons who want their salaries and prestige, but want nothing to do with actually fixing problems.

Melon

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

I think it's a silly thing. It's just a piece of cloth.

 

[Liesje]

But here's my question. Years ago, many many years ago I was a boy scout and we were taught that if a flag touches the ground or is torn etc that to properly "bury" the flag your duty was to burn the flag. Now to all you boy scouts out there, am I remembering this wrong or was that the case? Have things changed now?

I'm not a scout, but I was taught the same thing. I mean, we didn't actually burn or bury the flag, but it was to get us to show some respect. As a child I was always super careful w/ our large flag if was helping my dad put it up. If the flag stand broke, we'd make sure it wouldn't fall. We were/are also very considerate of my grandpa's folded flag (the one the family gets when a soldier dies) and I don't think that flag has ever been on the ground or unfolded. In that case, it's more of our showing respect towards my grandpa and what he had to go through as such a young man (18) serving in WWII and helping to liberate a concentration camp. I suppose for me it's more about showing respect to our leaders and soldiers than being obsessively patriotic. It is probably mroe significant when the flags themselves have a deeper meaning.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Yes, you can burn the flag in protest all you want. It's constitutionally protected speech, despite what any conservative will try and tell you otherwise.

Hmmm...somehow I don't think it was conservatives that prosecuted Chuck Spingola for burning a flag during a protest in Columbus Ohio - the gay pride flag. He was convicted, by the way.

 

[Liesje]

I think it's a silly thing. It's just a piece of cloth.

To some people, it's much much more. Say you had an urn with the ashes of a close relative. Would you think "it's just some ash" and not be extra careful?

 

[melon]

Hmmm...somehow I don't think it was conservatives that prosecuted Chuck Spingola for burning a flag during a protest in Columbus Ohio - the gay pride flag. He was convicted, by the way.

What was he convicted of, BTW? Burning a gay pride flag isn't illegal in itself. Ethnic intimidation is illegal. Try burning a cross in someone's front yard and see what you'll get.

The American flag, however, is officially neutral. It's an act of protest against the government, not any specific individual, race or religion. And protest against the government is part of the American tradition--that's why American flag burning is constitutionally protected.

Melon

 

[melon]

Before we start another flame war here (pun intended), let's remember one thing:

American flags are burned publically maybe once or twice a decade, at most. Getting all furious over something that happens so infrequently isn't worth our effort.

Melon

 

[Rono]

I think it's a silly thing. It's just a piece of cloth.

 

[Rono]

To some people, it's much much more. Say you had an urn with the ashes of a close relative. Would you think "it's just some ash" and not be extra careful?

Actualy, there is more simularity between a flag and a person as you think. they both tend to go with the direction of the wind.

 

[nbcrusader]

Re: Re: Flag burning???

I'm not a scout, but I was taught the same thing. I mean, we didn't actually burn or bury the flag, but it was to get us to show some respect. As a child I was always super careful w/ our large flag if was helping my dad put it up. If the flag stand broke, we'd make sure it wouldn't fall. We were/are also very considerate of my grandpa's folded flag (the one the family gets when a soldier dies) and I don't think that flag has ever been on the ground or unfolded. In that case, it's more of our showing respect towards my grandpa and what he had to go through as such a young man (18) serving in WWII and helping to liberate a concentration camp. I suppose for me it's more about showing respect to our leaders and soldiers than being obsessively patriotic. It is probably mroe significant when the flags themselves have a deeper meaning.

Ceremonial burning to retire a flag (as opposed to throwing away in the trash) is quite different than your garden variety of street protest burning.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Before we start another flame war here (pun intended), let's remember one thing:

American flags are burned publically maybe once or twice a decade, at most. Getting all furious over something that happens so infrequently isn't worth our effort.

Melon

Thank you.

I personally wouldn't think to burn a flag, but if someone else wished to, that's their choice.

Angela

 

[deep]

Ok I have a question.

It seems these days burning the US flag is probably the biggest sin one can commit to their country. It use to be that burning the flag was a sign of protest now it will guarantee you a seat in prison.

But here's my question. Years ago, many many years ago I was a boy scout and we were taught that if a flag touches the ground or is torn etc that to properly "bury" the flag your duty was to burn the flag. Now to all you boy scouts out there, am I remembering this wrong or was that the case? Have things changed now?

well

the reason people react so differently to the burning of the flag

is the intend


If I cut someone open
I will go to jail

When my neighbor cuts someone open he gets paid big bucks. Yes, he is a surgeon.

 

[deep]

Hmmm...somehow I don't think it was conservatives that prosecuted Chuck Spingola for burning a flag during a protest in Columbus Ohio - the gay pride flag. He was convicted, by the way.

Are these comparisons not well thought out?



if I burn some wood
in my yard, no crime

if I burn two pieces of wood (cross)
on someone's lawn
mixed race, Jewish, or other minority
it is a hate crime.




Likewise, a kid painting his name on a wall
is not the same as painting swastikas and the words "Die Jews" on a synagogue wall - a hate crime


It comes down to the intend
and impact on targeted victims

 

[80sU2isBest]

Are these comparisons not well thought out?



if I burn some wood
in my yard, no crime

if I burn two pieces of wood (cross)
on someone's lawn
mixed race, Jewish, or other minority
it is a hate crime.

That was not the situation in Chuck's case.

In Columbus, Ohio, when a group of Homosexuals tried to force out the minorities in a neighborhood and make it their own community, Chuck Spaginola held a protest, on public streets, and burned the gay pride flag. He was arrested but acquited of the charges. Later, however, the acquital was overturned because the act wasn't deemed protectable as free speech.

 

[melon]

In Columbus, Ohio, when a group of Homosexuals tried to force out the minorities in a neighborhood and make it their own community, Chuck Spaginola held a protest, on public streets, and burned the gay pride flag. He was arrested but acquited of the charges. Later, however, the acquital was overturned because the act wasn't deemed protectable as free speech.

I have no sympathy for heteros and the cancer they are to our communities.

But for the record, gays have been arrested for protesting in churches. Should that be protectable free speech?

Likewise, if blacks start moving into a community, would it be acceptable to burn a cross in front of them as protest?

Melon

 

[deep]

That was not the situation in Chuck's case.

In Columbus, Ohio, when a group of Homosexuals tried to force out the minorities in a neighborhood and make it their own community, Chuck Spaginola held a protest, on public streets, and burned the gay pride flag. He was arrested but acquited of the charges. Later, however, the acquital was overturned because the act wasn't deemed protectable as free speech.

that's your version


i found this one

Charles Spingola, aka, Preacher Chuck

Spingola spends his time attempting to intimidate gay, lesbian and bisexual men and women. Spingola threw Bibles at marchers at the recent Gay Pride March, burned the rainbow flag in front of the King Avenue Methodist Church that was holding an ecumenical service as part of the Stonewall Gay Pride holiday and demanded that “Faggots repent!” He spews his hate in name of Jesus, and quotes the Bible to cover his obvious eclectic sexual yearnings. You’ll find Spingola conveniently citing Leviticus 20:13 calling men laying with men an “abomination,” but you’ll never find him harassing pork eaters who are also referred to in Leviticus as an abomination. Now where exactly in the New Testament, Chuck, does Christ burn flags and throw Bibles at people? Since we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, Chuck’s sins are the most dangerous and must be vigilantly fought since his beliefs lead to the real life death and crucifixion of Matthew Shepherd.

 

[deep]

80s,

Do you want to associate with these people?

i got to believe you did not get the complete story?





and here is chuck's version?

One pervert asked me for a hug, to which I complied. He must have be impressed (or maybe he just liked me), because he asked for a hug a couple more times throughout the preach.

SODOMITES BURN IN EFFIGY

At 1pm, about 30 police officers on bicycles came to our area of the sidewalk and set up a perimeter with their bikes. Chuck had a "burn permit" for 1:30 as the parade was scheduled to pass.

The duralogs were lit over the garbage can. A few rainbow flags were torched as decadent paraders passed by. Then two sodomites swinging from a rope were burned in effigy. It was a glorious representation of the fires of hell.

WE MARCHED IN THE PARADE

As a candidate running for office, Tony was granted a spot in the parade. We met Tony at the staging area and unfurled our banners at 11:30am. We went about a block and a half when we were attacked by sodomite anarchists. Three of them were taken into custody and we continued our march. We went another block and a half and were stopped by the police and parade marshal. We were corralled to the side as Tony and others explained our legitimate purpose.

About a half hour later the police escorted us to the sidewalk and marched us along the parade route. It was complete mayhem, so the police took us off the route to a different section of the parade. We set up our preaching area with many police officers directly in front of us acting as a wall between us and the weirdoes. It was quite exhilarating.

 

[melon]

that's your version


i found this one

Nothing like facts to get in the way, eh?

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

Charles Spingola, aka, Preacher Chuck
"
Spingola spends his time attempting to intimidate gay, lesbian and bisexual men and women. Spingola threw Bibles at marchers at the recent Gay Pride March, burned the rainbow flag in front of the King Avenue Methodist Church that was holding an ecumenical service as part of the Stonewall Gay Pride holiday and demanded that “Faggots repent!” He spews his hate in name of Jesus, and quotes the Bible to cover his obvious eclectic sexual yearnings. You’ll find Spingola conveniently citing Leviticus 20:13 calling men laying with men an “abomination,” but you’ll never find him harassing pork eaters who are also referred to in Leviticus as an abomination. Now where exactly in the New Testament, Chuck, does Christ burn flags and throw Bibles at people? Since we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, Chuck’s sins are the most dangerous and must be vigilantly fought since his beliefs lead to the real life death and crucifixion of Matthew Shepherd."

This wasn't the incident he was arrested for in Columbus, that was shown in the PBS documentary "Flag Wars". I don't recall him throwing any Bibles in that one.

I don't agree with his hated of homosexuals or the fact that he calls them names, but the issue here is "flag-burning", not name-calling. Why is burning the flag of the USA during a protest protected as free speech when burning of the gay pride flag is not protected as free speech? If you say "because it is offensive" burning of the US flag is offensive to many, especially to those who have had a loved one die in battle and were given the US flag at the funeral.

By the way, I wans't going to bring "Flag Wars" into this until melon's unprovoked little slight of conservatives.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Nothing like facts to get in the way, eh?

Melon

Those weren't the facts of the particular incident to which I am referring, which was shown in "Flag Wars".

 

[deep]

Chuck Spingola arrested for taking fag flag

http://www.armyofgod.com/ChuckSpingola.html

 

[deep]

unprovoked little slight of conservatives.

Early Sunday morning we headed out to Chicago to hook up with several other friends, including Tony Cisneros-

Republican candidate for Congress.


We met Tony back in March while preaching at the Gay Marriage Demonstration in Chicago.

WE MARCHED IN THE PARADE

As a candidate running for office, Tony was granted a spot in the parade. We met Tony at the staging area and unfurled our banners at 11:30am. We went about a block and a half when we were attacked by sodomite anarchists. Three of them were taken into custody and we continued our march. We went another block and a half and were stopped by the police and parade marshal. We were corralled to the side as Tony and others explained our legitimate purpose.

Then two sodomites swinging from a rope were burned in effigy. It was a glorious representation of the fires of hell.

 

[melon]

Are you trying to make me feel sorry "Preacher Chuck"? The man's a raving bigot and "ethnic intimidation" is the least of the charges that he should get.

Why should he get arrested for burning a gay pride flag versus someone walking away free for burning an American flag? Precisely because the motivation is completely different. "Preacher Chuck" is a bigot no different from the KKK or the National Alliance. Those who burn American flags are doing it not as a hate crime, but as a form of political protest. Big, big, BIG difference!

BTW, I see that "Preacher Chuck" is part of the hate group, "Army of God." These are the same people who support killing abortion doctors, amongst other extreme right-wing beliefs, and he seems to take pride in being a "Christian terrorist." His words, not mine. They really are in the same league as the KKK or the National Alliance.

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

Early Sunday morning we headed out to Chicago to hook up with several other friends, including Tony Cisneros-

Republican candidate for Congress.


We met Tony back in March while preaching at the Gay Marriage Demonstration in Chicago.

WE MARCHED IN THE PARADE

As a candidate running for office, Tony was granted a spot in the parade. We met Tony at the staging area and unfurled our banners at 11:30am. We went about a block and a half when we were attacked by sodomite anarchists. Three of them were taken into custody and we continued our march. We went another block and a half and were stopped by the police and parade marshal. We were corralled to the side as Tony and others explained our legitimate purpose.

You talk about comparisons that are not well thought-out, but yours takes the cake.

I said something about melon's slight of conservatives, and you post examples of Spagnola's hatred?

HUH?
What is the connection, deep?

This thread was about flag-burning, and neither side had insulted a whole group of people - until melon. That's the "slight of conservatives" I was talking about.

He does that all the time. It doesn't make a difference whether it is actually part of the conversation or not.