FEMA: "Americans don't live in tents".

[melon]

The public does not want more taxes, but the general public should not be paying them anyway. In the 1970s, corporations paid 70% of all tax revenues collected, while individuals (and that would include both the richest and poorest) paid 30%. In the "good old days" of the 1950s, corporations paid 90% and individuals paid 10%.

Nowadays? That number is pretty much flipped: individuals pay roughly 90%, while corporations pay 10%. The wealthiest entities in this nation are not paying their fair share, even though they suck all of our money.

So as I see it, either corporations should be forced to pay more taxes (some of the wealthiest corporations in the country are at a point where they pay no taxes at all) or they should be forced to dramatically increase the amount they pay their workers, so that our 90% tax revenue burden can be more justified.

Right now, Bush is letting the wealthiest entities in the world have their cake and eat it too. And what do we get in return? Almost constant bankruptcy threats, layoffs, and pension dumping.

Oh what a great country we've turned into.

Melon

 

[hiphop]

The public does not want more taxes, but the general public should not be paying them anyway. In the 1970s, corporations paid 70% of all tax revenues collected, while individuals (and that would include both the richest and poorest) paid 30%. In the "good old days" of the 1950s, corporations paid 90% and individuals paid 10%.

Nowadays? That number is pretty much flipped: individuals pay roughly 90%, while corporations pay 10%. The wealthiest entities in this nation are not paying their fair share, even though they suck all of our money.

So as I see it, either corporations should be forced to pay more taxes (some of the wealthiest corporations in the country are at a point where they pay no taxes at all) or they should be forced to dramatically increase the amount they pay their workers, so that our 90% tax revenue burden can be more justified.

Right now, Bush is letting the wealthiest entities in the world have their cake and eat it too. And what do we get in return? Almost constant bankruptcy threats, layoffs, and pension dumping.

Oh what a great country we've turned into.

Melon

Good post.

Those neo-liberal politics started with Reagan, were followed by Bush Sr., continued with Clinton and is pushed forward by Bush Jr.

 

[Layton]

How come the State and Local governments seem to be getting a free pass with all of the criticism? Seems to me that those 2 entiites needed to represent THEIR citizens alot better.

Whoever said it's all a game is exactly right. Those 2 entities did a subpar job of dealing with the resource deficiency in terms of Category 4/5 preparation. First of all, they didn't fight hard enough for Federal resource allocation. Second of all, they didn't come up with appropriate contingency plans in lieu of the resource deficiency.

Monday morning quarterbacking sucks. So that's not my point here. I'm just trying to point out that those 2 entities seem to be getting off scott free relative to the Federal Govt. because the risk to those levies were no secret. Yet, the Mayor and Governor havn't got anywhere near the criticism the President has got.

 

[kellyahern]

No, they sure haven't. But the City of New Orleans really needs to fix its levees. Hindsight is 20/20, they did not know that this was going to be a Cat 5 storm before it made landfall.

Actually, it was a Cat 5 a day before it made landfall.

 

[verte76]

Actually, it was a Cat 5 a day before it made landfall.

That's right. I remember the announcement now. That whole day was basically a blur for me.

 

[kellyahern]

. That whole day was basically a blur for me.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Re: reply

Lessons to be learned.....

Learn from the past, do not dwell on them.

you can only learn from the past in a whole way IF you know as many facts as possible about the past....

the president got up and said 'we DIDN'T know the Levees would break....'. :l

That IS an OUTRIGHT lie!

The USA Army corps of Engineers had been saying for # years that the some of the levees were sinking they needed shoring up.
Local FEMA manager ALSO was desoperately trying to get help for the levees!

THE MONEY alotted for fixing the levees, AND for running a Catgory 4 hurracane test[/'i] by what FEMA, and locals officials were involved in - kept getting taken away eacy year post- 2001-- once FEMA was diminshed after being folding into under the tent of Homelad Security.

 

[dazzledbylight]

New Orleans was prepared for a Category 3 Hurricane. They got more than they planned for. Simple.

This monday morning quarterbacking is out of hand. No matter what we plan for, we will experience the unexpected.

The Army Corps of Engineersd and Local FEMA people were beggingfor money to shore up the levees for at least the PAST 3 - 4yrs! They started to get money then it was taken away, then turned down as the yrs dragged on.

AND ALSO they wanted to run a Catgory 4 hurricane test/drill computer modeling, etc. IT ALSO was turned down!

Neither of THESE are "Monday morning quaterbacking"....

They are facts:the money and the proposed actions that would have resulted from that money {that they DIDN'T get}-- that people were desperately trying to get to be ABLE to HELP THEMSELVES!

 

[dazzledbylight]

That's right. I remember the announcement now. That whole day was basically a blur for me.

no kidding!

 

[trevster2k]

How come the State and Local governments seem to be getting a free pass with all of the criticism? Seems to me that those 2 entiites needed to represent THEIR citizens alot better.

Whoever said it's all a game is exactly right. Those 2 entities did a subpar job of dealing with the resource deficiency in terms of Category 4/5 preparation. First of all, they didn't fight hard enough for Federal resource allocation. Second of all, they didn't come up with appropriate contingency plans in lieu of the resource deficiency.

Monday morning quarterbacking sucks. So that's not my point here. I'm just trying to point out that those 2 entities seem to be getting off scott free relative to the Federal Govt. because the risk to those levies were no secret. Yet, the Mayor and Governor havn't got anywhere near the criticism the President has got.

Fox news and conservative groups are totally blaming the governor and the mayor while absolving Bush. As far as I'm concerned, they all screwed up. Plus FEMA has really looked inefficient as compared to past hurricane reliefs.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Those 2 entities did a subpar job of dealing with the resource deficiency in terms of Category 4/5 preparation. First of all, they didn't fight hard enough for Federal resource allocation.

how do you know how hard or not they fought?

 

[dazzledbylight]

Plus FEMA has really looked inefficient as compared to past hurricane reliefs.

FEMA was folded inito the tent of "homeland security". , then monies Local FEMA/state etc they asked for [see my above posts] were seemingly not at all given, or waaaay diminshed from previous hurricane releif, and pre-postioning {where they get vehicals/supplies as close as possible- leaving some leeway for the storm to go another way] was NOT done for this storm as had been done in the 90's....?? i think Hur. Georges and Floyd if I remeber people who'd been through those taking about it on radio, it was done.

 

[melon]

Fox news and conservative groups are totally blaming the governor and the mayor while absolving Bush.

I was waiting for the spin doctors to whip up their usual course of lies. I'd say that FOX News is 99% of why Bush always gets a free pass for his fuck ups.

Melon

 

[echo0001]

Re: Re: FEMA: "Americans don't live in tents".

As someone said Saturday on CNN (or some coverage I was watching) 'refugees' was not a term they liked hearing, they preferred to have them referred to as 'survivors'.

Americans don't live in tents.

Americans don't become refugees.

I know that it may make people feel better to call themselves 'displaced' or 'survivors', but the fact is that they are refugees from a natural disaster.

I know that the news and media are probably going to fall on the side of not offending the people who have endured this catastrophe, but I see no other problem, especially when speaking about this in a political context and in terms of relief, aid, investigation of possible administration failure, etc., with speaking plainly.

'Refugee' may have unpretty connotations but this is a very ugly disaster and those people who got out alive are living very unpretty lives right now.

I hope that we do not blunt down the reality of their situation and the reality of their needs by completely burying the term 'refugee'. I know America likes to pretty things up even as much as possible but ... this isn't the time.

And should I meet, face to face, anybody who has lived through that mess, I'll call that individual anything they want to be called, even if they want to be called Chucky the Flying Pig. Though I hope not.

But when speaking of the mass of humanity that is still and will continue to be in need of assistance for weeks and months to come, I think 'refugees' is the truest, most low spin term.

And by using the word, unpretty or not, we are NOT playing along with certain politicians desire to soften the implications of the situation.

 

[Lila64]

for melon, all posts.

 

[echo0001]

I heard today on the coverage today that a Senator (and now I can't, so help me, remember his name--does anyone else know it?) will introduce a Bill to declare FEMA an independent agency reporting solely to the President.

I hope it goes through. FEMA should be an independent operator free of interference from other agencies.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I was waiting for the spin doctors to whip up their usual course of lies. I'd say that FOX News is 99% of why Bush always gets a free pass for his fuck ups.

Melon

And yet they don't possess 99% of the ratings, talk about hitting above their eeeeevil belt.

 

[Dreadsox]

I was waiting for the spin doctors to whip up their usual course of lies. I'd say that FOX News is 99% of why Bush always gets a free pass for his fuck ups.

Melon

SO the Governor does not bear any responsibility? The Mayor does not either? All of those busses in the lots were under the jurisdiction of the President?

The 200 Plus NO police officers that abandoned their jobs, leaving the city to lawless thugs....that is the President's fault?

There is spin going on both ways. The Governor did not want to give up the power to the President for her own political reasons.

Everyone is worried about the politics...and PEOPLE are still suffering.

 

[kellyahern]

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050905091809990022

 

[verte76]

New Orleans has, or had, a mayor, a police chief, Louisiana has a governor, they all share in the general screwy relief effort. Bush has made his share of screw-ups, to be sure, but it's not all his fault. Yesterday at mass I met some refugees. They weren't embarrassed when the priest introduced them as "refugees from Hatitiesburg".

 

[kellyahern]

.

 

[Scarletwine]

If this is posted already , sorry for the repeat.
This makes me absolutely sick!
FEMA Directing Donations To Rev. Pat Robertson
09/01/05 02:45 PM Eastern

FEMA is directing Katrina donations to none other than the
Rev. Pat Robertson .
Millions of Americans and people around the world have
rushed to donate money to the victims of Hurricane Katrina, which is shaping up to be one of the worst U.S. disasters in history, if not the worst.
FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is the lead
federal agency in the rescue & recovery operation at work in New Orleans and the Mississippi gulf coast.

FEMA has released to the media and on its Web site a list of
suggested charities to help the storm's hundreds of thousands of
victims. The Red Cross is first on the list.

The Rev. Pat Robertson's "Operation Blessing" is next on the
list.

"It's an outrage," said privacy watchdog Bill Scannell, who
alerted Sploid to the FEMA / Robertson scam. "Operation f**cking Blessing? And it's right underneath the Red Cross link!"

Scannell, currently campaigning against the Transportation
Security Administration's refusal to turn over personal information
illegally collected from 100 million U.S. air passengers, noted that
Operation Blessing's board of directors is dominated by the
televangelist and his family.

The chairman, "MG Robertson," is none other than the Rev.
Pat - Marion Gordon Robertson is his real name - while Pat's wife DeDe is vice president and son Gordon Robertson is also on the board.

The front operation for the radical, pro-assassination
televangelist and Republican power broker is also based in the Rev. Pat's headquarters, Virginia Beach.

Robertson's shell organizations have already collected more
than $25 million from the federal government under various "faith based" federal-handout programs. And with millions of distraught citizens looking to FEMA for help in finding reputable organizations to help Katrina survivors, Robertson stands to profit magnificently from the horror that has fallen on New Orleans and the Gulf Coast.

 

[Teta040]

Dreadsox:

I have just one question for you:

If thousands people in those 3 states had suddenly started falling dead in the streets from a massive cholera epidemic (which kills inless than 8 hrs hours if untreated) --biological terrorism--would you be accusing the local officails of the blame? If America had been hit with a biological weapons terrorist attack, do you think that Federal officials in FEMA and esp Homeland Security should not be helad accountable? Would you advocate that they keep their jobs to "help with the healing and recovery"?

If I had been Bush, I would have seen this as a God-sent opportunity to redeem myself politcally. I would have rushed to get down to those areas and used the same type of emergency powers BY 24 HRS after hearing reports of how bad things were, (executive decreee, etc etc--There was talk of invoking an emergency rule to establish a communications line between state, local and federal officials YESTERDAY to coordinate the recovery effort next week. WHY didn't Bush invoke those powers last Teusday? Even if didn't know there was sucha law, he could have asked his aides to see if there was any legal way they could get things in motion. THERE WAS NO EXCUSE FOR BUSH WAITING FOR THE LOCALS TO SORT IT OUT. PERIOD. He's quite knowlefgeabel aobut loopholes--how did he get Bolton confrmed to the UN? Whnt he Terri Schiavo crisis broke, he rushed back to the White House instantly. On Teus morning, there he was on Good Morning America.


Regardless of what local officials were doing bungling, he should have said, "The locals can't get their act together, so I have to take over." DON'T tell me that as President that he did NOT have the powers to do that.)

One thing I will NEVER forget the rest of my life is watching Wolf Blitzer angrily confront Micheal Chertoff, the Homeland Security Director, on Thursday asking him how he "did not know" what was happening in the ground. Don't tell me the man did not watch TV. It was the Bush lying machine, right there on live TV, right in action. I really didn't fully beleive it until now.

The main problem was a communications failure. After 9/11, the Comission that Bush fought the creation of for 2 years came to the conclusion that lack of communications casued Bush not to be aware a terrorist attack was coming. This time, there is NO WAY he could say, "I didn't know" or "someone should have told me." All he and these FEMA bastards--had to do was watch TV. Later, they'll say, "Nobody at the local level informed me." Or "We didn't have the power." All they had to do was turn on the TV. This is a MASSIVE NATIONAL DISASTER and you tell me that the Governor and the mayor had the abilty to mobilize every plane, train,a d Grey hound bus to get people out starting Teusday. We quibble over those 200 busues. Why aren't we talking about the whole national Greyhound Fleet? How many people do those buses hold? 500 at most? How was the mayor on Sunday supposed to doa triage evacuating 5000 people and leaving the other 95,000 behind? Didn't he assume Homeland Security had a plan to do this? You'd accuse him of playing triage if those buses were used.

This morning, the Chicago Tribune reported that off the Gulf Coast was a hospital ship with 6 operating rooms, hundreds of beds, and the capacity of producing 100,000 gallons of fresh water, sitting off the Gulf Coast since MONDAY that is STILL THERE. DON'T tell me Bush did not know this ship was there, that the Navy did not contact him and try to leave. Do you have a defense of "Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin told me that the locals can handle this, so don't come"? Escuse me, I was watchibg all the networks all week. The locals could not handle it by Teus. Bush should have used ALL HIS POWERS to order that ship there. It could have got there by Wed. If this was a terrorist attack, what would he do?

The NY Times has an article about all those mysterious shootings of rescue copters, and personnel, even media on Saturday. DON'T tell me that looters were shooting journalists on Saturday.About FEMA preventing recovery. Go read it. This is NOT conspiracy theory, folks....

At the beginning of the week, I was ready to cut W some slack on this one. I was ready to blame everyone but him--or at least, let this pass by. But his pattern of behavior exactly matches that after 9/11--worse. I am not calling for his head. But I AM calling for the FEMA and Homeland security directors to be grilled in tough hearnings before the end of this year. NOT 2 yrs from now, NOt Christmas.

Conservatives accuse people of playing politcs. The "balem game" os focusing on NOLA where the mayor and governor are Democrats. The media has been trying to focus attention on MI and ALA in the last 2 days, where the officials are Republicans.

 

[U2Bama]

If this is posted already , sorry for the repeat.
This makes me absolutely sick!
FEMA Directing Donations To Rev. Pat Robertson
09/01/05 02:45 PM Eastern

FEMA is directing Katrina donations to none other than the
Rev. Pat Robertson .

FEMA has released to the media and on its Web site a list of
suggested charities to help the storm's hundreds of thousands of
victims. The Red Cross is first on the list.

The Rev. Pat Robertson's "Operation Blessing" is next on the
list.

"It's an outrage," said privacy watchdog Bill Scannell, who
alerted Sploid to the FEMA / Robertson scam. "Operation f**cking Blessing? And it's right underneath the Red Cross link!"

I'm no fan of Pat Robertson, but to be fair, I had to actually do a "search" on the FEMA.gov website to even find his organization's listing. It is fourth on the list, not second directly after the Red Cross (in fact it is after the Humane Society). It is followed by a disclaimer as follows:

You are now exiting the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) web site...
and entering the site: http://www.ob.org/

We have provided a link to this site because it has information that may be of interest to our viewers.

FEMA does not necessarily endorse the views expressed or the facts presented on this site. FEMA does not endorse any commercial products that may be advertised or on this site.

The FEMA Privacy Policy does not apply on this site. Please check the site for its Privacy Notice.

To easily return, make sure you have added www.fema.gov as a Bookmark or Favorite.

It is included with the following list of agencies:

American Red Cross
1-800-HELP NOW (435-7669) English,
1-800-257-7575 Spanish;

America’s Second Harvest
1-800-344-8070

Humane Society of the United States
1-888-259-5431

Operation Blessing
1-800-436-6348

United Jewish Communities
1-877-277-2477

Donate Cash and/or Volunteer

Adventist Community Services
1-800-381-7171

B'nai B'rith International
1-888-388-4224

Catholic Charities, USA
1-800-919-9338

Christian Disaster Response
941-956-5183 or 941-551-9554

Christian Reformed World Relief Committee
1-800-848-5818

Church World Service
1-800-297-1516

Convoy of Hope
417-823-8998

Corporation for National and Community Service Disaster Relief Fund
(202) 606-6718

Disaster Psychiatry Outreach
1-212-598-9995

Feed the Children
1-800-525-7575

Lutheran Disaster Response
800-638-3522

Mennonite Disaster Service
717-859-2210

Nazarene Disaster Response
888-256-5886

Presbyterian Disaster Assistance
800-872-3283

Salvation Army
1-800-SAL-ARMY (725-2769)

Southern Baptist Convention -- Disaster Relief
1-800-462-8657, ext. 6440

UJA Federation of New York
212 836-1880

Union for Reform Judaism

United Methodist Committee on Relief
1-800-554-8583


And they are NOT on FEMA's primary list of National Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster listed below:

• (1) Support Our Members
• (2) National VOAD Members • Adventist Community Services
• America's Second Harvest • American Baptist Men USA
• American Disaster Reserve • American Radio Relay League, Inc. (ARRL)
• American Red Cross • Ananda Marga Universal Relief Team (AMURT)
• Catholic Charities USA • Center for International Disaster Information (formerly Volunteers in Technical Assistance)
• Christian Disaster Response • Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (CRWRC)
• Church of the Brethren- Emergency Response • Church World Service
• Convoy of Hope • Disaster Psychiatry Outreach
• Episcopal Relief and Development (formerly The Presiding Bishop's Fund for World Relief) • Friends Disaster Service, Inc.
• Humane Society of the United States • International Aid
• International Critical Incident Stress Foundation • International Relief Friendship Foundation (IRFF)
• Lutheran Disaster Response • Mennonite Disaster Service
• Mercy Medical Airlift: National Patient Travel Center • National Emergency Response Team
• National Organization for Victim Assistance • Nazarene Disaster Response
• Northwest Medical Teams International • Presbyterian Church (USA)
• REACT International, Inc. • Society of St. Vincent de Paul
• Southern Baptist Convention • The Points of Light Foundation
• The Salvation Army • United Church of Christ - Wider Church Ministries
• United Jewish Communities • United Methodist Committee on Relief
• United Way of America • Volunteers of America
• World Vision


However, for SHOCK VALUE, I can see why the author of the article you posted said that FEMA is directing donations to "none other than the "Reverend" Pat Robertson," despite the fact that 50-60 other organizations are listed. Shocking!

~U2Alabama

 

[U2Bama]

Dreadsox:

Regardless of what local officials were doing bungling, he should have said, "The locals can't get their act together, so I have to take over." DON'T tell me that as President that he did NOT have the powers to do that.)

I think the Feds (Bush, FEMA, not sure who) tried to do that Friday but were met with resistance from the state of Louisiana.

And I think Dread's main point (and one with which I concur) is that the local and state governments, knowing as early as Friday, August 26 that a category 4-5 hurricane was headed towards NOLA and that NOLA has thousands of residents without a means of transportation, these local and state governments should have orchestrated an evacuation of those in need by utilizing the school buses that are now submerged. I don't deny that all levels of government have bungled this to varying degrees since the hurricane made impact.

~U2Alabama

 

[nbcrusader]

Shock value indeed

How surprising.

 

[Layton]

how do you know how hard or not they fought?

I know because the levies never got the resource allocation necessary to improve them. Simply put, local officials did not make their case that the levies could not withstand a category 4/5 blast well enough. Like I said before, it's all a game. Local officials had to compete with other interests regarding the allocation of limited resources. They didn't play the game well enough. Also, knowing that they weren't getting what they needed they didn't create a viable contingency plan. Sometimes the Locals have to take it upon themselves to get things done. American politics is built around that idea to a degree.

In fairness, they could've just encountered stubborn Federal leadership while attempting to attain those resources. I suppose that may be possible. I do think everybody was sort of playing the odds here and I mean everybody. That includes the Clinton Administration because the Local officials have been making their case for years.

In addition, the Local officials played the odds. They knew first hand the risks to those levies. If you believe they fought really hard to deal with that, then that's proof enough they knew the risks. In lieu of their first hand knowledge, why didn't they educate their citizenry on the risks associated with those levies? I think that's a fair question. I'd argue that they should of INSISTED that everybody get out of dodge. I don't think they did because they were playing the odds as much as anybody.

Look, the blame game is a totally inadequate way to address this problem. I'm also not saying that the Feds didn't drop the ball. I'm just saying that when it's all said and done, the Local and State officials will have to look themselves in the mirror as much as the Feds will have to.

 

[Dreadsox]

Dreadsox:

I have just one question for you:

If thousands people in those 3 states had suddenly started falling dead in the streets from a massive cholera epidemic (which kills inless than 8 hrs hours if untreated) --biological terrorism--would you be accusing the local officails of the blame? If America had been hit with a biological weapons terrorist attack, do you think that Federal officials in FEMA and esp Homeland Security should not be helad accountable? Would you advocate that they keep their jobs to "help with the healing and recovery"?

There was more than 48 Hours for the state and local officials to evacuate. I do not understand your eight hour parallel.

I have stated in this thread and others that there will be plenty of time to figure out what went wrong, but it troubles me, that this debate is taking up so much energy that could be used elsewhere.

There is a time for accountability, I happen to believe it is NOT NOW.

Yes, I would advocate they keep their jobs given the NOLA Governor's decision to NOT let the Feds take over. AS the leaker from her office said it was a political decision.

I am not sure the rest of your post was directed at me so I am not responding.

 

[verte76]

I think I'll do my donation to someone else on the list, thank you very much. Actually we are having a huge diocesan fundraiser and I plan to participate in that.

 

[kellyahern]

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster Relief Request.pdf

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=973

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard