FBI considers torturing suspects

[DoctorGonzo]

As part of the United States' plan to win the award for "Biggest Hypocriate In The World", the FBI is considering resorting to torture as a method to extract information from uncoperative suspects.

This, along with the current drive to erode civil liberties in the name of National Security is just another part of "Operation: Enduring Freedom". Orwell would appreciate it, I'm sure.

The Times Article

FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent

FROM DAMIAN WHITWORTH IN WASHINGTON

AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network, according to a report yesterday.
More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any of them to talk.

Options being weighed include “truth” drugs, pressure tactics and extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.

“We’re into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration has begun to appear,” a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.

Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.

The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher reception in jails back home.

One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States.

The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the silence.

“We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . . where we don’t have a choice, and we are probably getting there,” an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper.

The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.

However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert Blitzer, a former head of the FBI’s counter-terrorism section. He said that the practice “goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.”

In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably being planned.

Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.

[Holy John]

I would be interested to know the opinions of people such as 80sU2isBest or StarsnStripes on that, other than "I don't believe everything I read".

To my part, extrading those people to countries making torture is an official approval with a golden seal of the US Government for torture, while saying "we keep our hands clean, it's not our fault".

I hope desire for revenge will not overcome not only wisdom, but human rights as well. Saying that "But they killed innocent people, so if we need to torture them we will do it" reminds me a well-knows phrase : Eye to eye will make the world blind. Are you blind ?


cheers

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And we all shine on, like the sun, the moon and the stars.
- John Lennon

[speedracer]

I've expressed my support for the war in many posts, but I don't think they should be tortured. They are accomplices to acts of war against the US, and should be treated no better and no worse than any other prisoners of war.

[U2Bama]

Okay, HJ; your desire for us to let an international court try the perpetrators needs to exclude France and Morocco from trying them since their interrogation methods are "harsher" than ours. Make sure you make a note of that.

~U2Alabama

[Holy John]

Booooonnnnn, ça r'commence, bordel.


Bama, terrorism is international, unless it's made by people from Country X against Country X. So, if France caught up international terrorists, then they should put them into international court. Simple as that.

You should go read my new topic. It would enlighten you on some of my ideas.

And if I'm wrong, instead of making myself note things, give me arguments that are worth it. Cos the last comment you made gave me the same impression as when I see an empty box.

cheers

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And we all shine on, like the sun, the moon and the stars.
- John Lennon

[pub crawler]

I should be shocked, but I'm not. After all, Congressman Steve Buyer (R-IN) is advocating the limited use of "a tactical nuclear device" to smoke the Afghanis out of their caves. It's going to take a lot to shock me.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by pub crawler:
I should be shocked, but I'm not. After all, Congressman Steve Buyer (R-IN) is advocating the limited use of "a tactical nuclear device" to smoke the Afghanis out of their caves. It's going to take a lot to shock me.

What exactly is a "tactical nuclear device"?

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-22-2001).]

[pub crawler]

I don't know. You tell me.

[Whortense]

tsk..tsk, speedracer. editing your original post to make it less offensive. whortense read it before you edited it. oooooh.

moo

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~whortense wiffin
walla walla, washington

[Not George Lucas]

I may be just a simple boy from the Midwest, but I fail to understand the logic behind the government's actions, here. What I have gathereed from our fabulous media, is that this so-called "War on Terrorism" is supposed to make the world safe for democracy and freedom. The United States has taken it upon itself to govern the world. It believes it is its duty to insure that the world will be democratic. (Never mind the fact that the United Stated is not a democracy.) If we're so concerned with democracy, why don't we subscribe to it?

Making the world safe for freedom.... How, exactly, does limiting our freedom even more than it already is make us more free? I'm still not figuring this one one out. Where does this restriction on civil liberties end? At what point does the govenment say, "This is far enough. We're infringing on too many of these people's constitutional rights"? What's next? Mandatory residential searches? Why don't we just eliminate the justice system? It's such a pain in the ass as it is.

So, they want to torture people, now. I'm not too sure I'm prepared to believe this one. Unfortunately, it's not as far-fetched as I'd like to believe.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Whortense:
tsk..tsk, speedracer. editing your original post to make it less offensive. whortense read it before you edited it. oooooh.

moo

I posted it before I realized that Mr. Buyer might want to start firing short-range nuclear missiles into caves, but I was also wondering if he had something else in mind.

And why can't I edit my own posts? You edited one of my posts in another thread


[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-22-2001).]

[MSU2mike]

A tactical nuclear device is essentially a missile with superior detonation power to that of our standard missiles and bombs, but without the widespread effects (radiation) that comes with the larger ICBMs.

[MSU2mike]

Originally posted by Not George Lucas:
[B]Making the world safe for freedom.... How, exactly, does limiting our freedom even more than it already is make us more free? I'm still not figuring this one one out. Where does this restriction on civil liberties end? At what point does the govenment say, "This is far enough. We're infringing on too many of these people's constitutional rights"? What's next? Mandatory residential searches? Why don't we just eliminate the justice system? It's such a pain in the ass as it is.[B]

I'm curious to hear what civil liberties you've had taken away from you in the last six weeks.

[StarsnStripes]

Originally posted by Holy John:
I would be interested to know the opinions of people such as 80sU2isBest or StarsnStripes on that, other than "I don't believe everything I read".

Wholy J,
I didn't take time to read the entire article, as I've got the flu and I don't have the energy to go a few rounds with you tonight. You'll have to forgive me.

All I can say in response is... What about it? Throughout the history of warfare (and we are at war, like it or not), POWs and other detainees have met a similar fate. Ever hear of the Hanoi Hilton? I'm sure the bruises on downed coalition fighter pilots' faces during the gulf war were figments of CNN's imagination, right?

Torture is a reality of war. If the US resorts to this practice, and OBL is caught based on intelligence derived from it, then SO BE IT.

Cheers!

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Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.

[DoctorGonzo]

What exactly is a "tactical nuclear device"?

A strategic nuclear device is a multi-megaton or high-kiloton city-busting weapon.

A tactical nuclear device is designed to be used on the battlefeild. Limited damage radius, but packing quite a punch. Nuclear shells can be fired from tanks, and there are even nuclear landmines. The smallest explosion they can make is about 4x that produced in the Oaklahoma City bombing. They still produce a good share of radiation but are excellent at destroying hardened targets such as a cave or bunker.

Using one would set a horrible precedent. The U.S would probably stick by its "Do as we say not as we do" stance, but other nations would see any use of any nuclear device as a moral greenlight to use them in conflicts they may fight in the future.

Now, onto something completely different...

I'm curious to hear what civil liberties you've had taken away from you in the last six weeks.

Legislation has been introduced to allow the U.S to hold terrorist suspects indefinately on secret evidence that their lawyers cannot have access to. A blatant constitutional violation.

Wiretapping is being expanded.

Mandatory "packet sniffing" hardware is being proposed. Many ISPs (including mine, if I'm not mistaken) have already signaled their willingness to allow FBI to install "Carnivore" - the machine that sees every bit of internet traffic going through a particular ISP and records what it wants.

and the list goes on....I just hope Americans are willing to present their national ID cards to the National Gaurd soliders that still fill our cities, can't argue with any representatives of the Office Of Homeland Security, after all.

[DoctorGonzo]

Torture is a reality of war. If the US resorts to this practice, and OBL is caught based on intelligence derived from it, then SO BE IT.

So, you are saying we should dispose of our respect for human dignity and the respect for human life that we hold so dea,r and claim to be defending just because it's inconvient?

Your reasoning is the same kind that is used to justify slamming planes into skyscrapers.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 10-23-2001).]

[StarsnStripes]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
So, you are saying we should dispose of our respect for human dignity and the respect for human life that we hold so dea,r and claim to be defending just because it's inconvient?


DG,
According to HJ and others, we show very little of the above anyway. And AGAIN, we are at war. Suffering during conflict has many faces. Sorry if you don't like them all.


Your reasoning is the same kind that is used to justify slamming planes into skyscrapers.

There really is no comparison between killing 5000 or so innocent people, and torturing a few dozen uncooperative suspects.

I'm tired of US critics saying "America is no better than any other country", while at the same time trying to hold the US to comparitively higher moral standards. You can't have it both ways. Given who our enemy is, this is a fight that, unfortunately, requires the US to get down and wrestle around in the mud. I don't mind us getting a little dirty.


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Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.

[dream wanderer]

Can't we go the drug route without torturing them?
And be open about it...if you are caught and the authorities have resonable suspicions...you will be drugged for information..
Of course that can be abuse as well...but wouldn't the suspects at least be left intact aftwards with no bruises..

[pub crawler]

Originally posted by StarsnStripes:

I'm tired of US critics saying "America is no better than any other country", while at the same time trying to hold the US to comparitively higher moral standards. You can't have it both ways.

Well, then, why don't we just throw away our civility and start torturing the terrorist suspects we're holding. Maybe we should pull their teeth out with pliers. Indeed, it's too much of a pain in the ass to maintain the high moral standards we've held thus far.

[Edited for my good friend speedracer]

[This message has been edited by pub crawler (edited 10-23-2001).]

[Rono]

Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
There really is no comparison between killing 5000 or so innocent people, and torturing a few dozen uncooperative suspects.

If you tollerate this your children will be next. ( manic street preachers )