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Old 10-26-2001, 06:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono:
How many of the 800 suspects are arabic ?

Dunno. How many Arabic persons in the US haven't been detained by the FBI?
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Old 10-27-2001, 01:34 AM   #42
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Rono:

Are you suggest that we extend the search to Amish people in Pennsylvania and African-American farmers in rural Alabama?

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Old 10-27-2001, 02:16 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
What is your basis for this bold claim?
His basis is that it's apparent now that the CIA was very aware something was up in the weeks before the attack. They've admitted this. The problem is that WARCHILD's statement implies that they knew the who, what, when, and where of it...of course that's not true.
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Old 10-27-2001, 02:54 AM   #44
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I don't believe the soon-to-be-passed wire-tapping bill will tread too fully on our civil liberties. If it does, we have a balanced enough court system to root it out; and at least, this law may be in place just long enough to serve the greater good.

And on the issue of torture... all I can say is, God bless National Review.

From the vast mind of Jonah Goldberg, in an article dated October 12th:

Torture is against the law in Israel (we can't say the same about most, if not all, of her neighbors). But Israel's Supreme Court grants an exception, the so-called "ticking bomb" excuse. If Israeli authorities are positive there's a bomb about to go off somewhere which will kill untold numbers of innocents, they can use "physical pressure" or some other sanitized euphemism for torture on someone in their custody, if he has information about how to prevent it.

Imagine if the FBI announced that we were in a similar position on September 10, but we declined to whack the guy around "because torture is always wrong." Six thousand people die; the country loses billions of dollars which could have been spent more productively. Hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs, and hundreds of millions live in fear. Do you think the guy who made the decision not to fill a pillow case with a bunch of oranges and make like Barry Bonds would come out a national hero? Do you think the gang at an NYPD funeral would say, "Hey there goes the conscience of the nation!"?


Is lying bad? Yes.

Is torture bad? Yes.

Is lying sometimes justified? Yes -- ask the Jews saved by Oskar Schindler.

Is torture sometimes justified? You tell me -- if you believed that the torture of a terrorist thug could save potentially thousands of American men, women, and children, would you STILL hold back?

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[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 10-26-2001).]
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Old 10-27-2001, 03:22 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
Careful what you say, Rono.

I take it that this comment is meant sardonically--that is, you're comparing the torture of suspects to the Third Reich.

But Hitler executed millions of Jews for being Jewish. (He did the same to other categories of people, and to various other unlucky persons, too.)

While I'm against torturing the 800 or so suspects we have in custody now (remember, they're being detained for a reason--the FBI suspects that they were involved or at least know something), there's no basis for comparison with Hitler's rule.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-25-2001).]
How many of the 800 suspects are arabic ?

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Old 10-27-2001, 01:15 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
Dunno. How many Arabic persons in the US haven't been detained by the FBI?
Point taken, but accepting torturing make it very close to a total regime.



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Old 10-27-2001, 05:00 PM   #47
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The same reasons other 'regimes' torture suspects is the same one some of you are using now. Human rights violations are only an issue when its isn't too much of an incovenience it seems
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Old 10-27-2001, 05:13 PM   #48
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What reasons would those be?

Saving lives? Choosing the lesser of two evils?
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Old 10-28-2001, 09:18 AM   #49
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reasons of national security.

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Old 10-28-2001, 09:26 AM   #50
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As someone from the Caribbean, it also seems hyprocritical to me how the U.S.A normalizes trade with China who is just as Communist, has a worse human rights record, and poses more of a military threat to the U.S.A than CUBA.

Businesses see suddenly huge emerging markets in china and BOOM China's record is forgotten.

There's money to be made in Cuba too people.
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Old 10-28-2001, 09:29 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by nintendan:
Human rights violations are only an issue when its isn't too much of an incovenience it seems

Maybe for you,..not for me.

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Old 10-28-2001, 10:58 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by nintendan:

There's money to be made in Cuba too people.

No shit.. I'm just waiting for the embargo to be dropped, and am going to head to one of those impending resorts on teh beaches.. It is beautiful there
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Old 10-28-2001, 12:14 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
From the vast mind of Jonah Goldberg, in an article dated October 12th:

Torture is against the law in Israel (we can't say the same about most, if not all, of her neighbors). But Israel's Supreme Court grants an exception, the so-called "ticking bomb" excuse. If Israeli authorities are positive there's a bomb about to go off somewhere which will kill untold numbers of innocents, they can use "physical pressure" or some other sanitized euphemism for torture on someone in their custody, if he has information about how to prevent it.
I still have a problem with this. I'll try to explain it by using another measure by Israel: they have granted the military permission to liquidate Palestinians suspected to be terrorists/planning terrorist attacks.
The last few months dozens of Palestinians have been attacked/killed by the Israeli military on grounds of them being terrorists. Just the mention of planning a terrorist attack is enough (and I don't think the Israeli government would care if accidentally an innocent Palestinian was killed).

Now translate this to the torture case. This law will give the police unlimited possibilities to torture. They only have to state that the suspect knows about upcoming terrorist attacks and they have permission to torture. And once you have this law it is probably easier to push the boundaries of when it becomes acceptable or not and which methods are acceptable or not...

I want to conclude with a statement that is printed in the booklet of Michael Franti & Spearhead's Stay Human (great CD BTW). The CD is about/against the death penalty and several persons have contributed soundbytes to the booklet (including Bono). Anyway, this quote is by Jello Biafra and I agree with it:
I've been against the death penalty since I was a very small child, for one simple reason. What if they've got the wrong person? And what if it happens to be me?

C ya!

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