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Old 12-07-2007, 02:49 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




like the ass-kicking Christ at the end of "the passion."
You mean the martyr Christ through the Passion? Maybe you should see the movie first, dude...
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:50 PM   #142
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
We're not talking about the line between allowing and encouraging Christians to vote. Everyone should vote.

But a person's religious views should have nothing to do with it. Nothing at all.
What about a person's race? Or gender? Or socio-political background?
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:55 PM   #143
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Originally posted by nathan1977
And I'm certainly not going to let people start saying things like "Romney's practically a jihadist" without speaking up.

i appreciate your struggle, and i think any thinking person should and does struggle with these things, and i appreciate that you called me out on my intentionally provocative comment.

but i think my point still stands. there's not so much difference between those who want Christ's Kingdom on Earth and those who would restore the Caliphate. there's not much difference between those who place the 10 Commandments outside the state supreme court and those who point to the Koran as their constitution. in fact, i'd argue that the only things that prevent some Christians from transforming into the Islamic radicals (and we haven't even touched on how this can get all Holy War) is that most Christians live in secular societies that are relatively affluent, especially compared to the Muslim world.

were social and historical conditions different, i think we'd very easily see Christian suicide bombers and "crusadists."

again, i champion secularism because it is by definition neutral. it is not a religion. it's bogus to try to pull out some stunning insight that says that secularism becomes a religion. you could say that Statism can become a religion (and you'd be right to point out Stalin and Pol Pot), but Statism is not secularism, and to conflate the two is intellectually lazy.

personally, i don't actually care if kids sing Christmas carols in school. i don't care if there's a nativity scene in a public square. i do think that some people can get a little obnoxious about this stuff, though i full understand where they are coming from. i don't think many Christians realize just how unimportant religion is in the lives of so many people, and also how it isn't an all-encompassing source of self-identity for many people, and how nervous people get when talk shifts to how stuff that's nearly totally subjective and individual and personal take on some cosmic objective reality in the mind of the believer.

and then there's the whole destructive aspect of all religions, which the US has mercifully been spared from, but that's because of secularism, as Europe provides such a great model of this.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:55 PM   #144
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Originally posted by nathan1977


Pluralism, Irvine. Not secularism.

pluralism, Nathan, is impossible without secularism.

secularism treats everyone as equally unimportant. hence, you are all free to go about making yourself feel more special.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:58 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


You mean the martyr Christ through the Passion? Maybe you should see the movie first, dude...


dude, i saw the movie. it's the most violent, sadistic, and homoerotic thing i've seen since "apocolypto."

and, dude, the ass-kicking Christ who rises at the end, his eyes firmly fixed forward, the swelling triumphant music, the holes in the hand -- GARRGH!!! there's some ass to kick, and i know who's first on the list ...
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:58 PM   #146
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Originally posted by nathan1977


What about a person's race? Or gender? Or socio-political background?
Irrelevant.

Irrelevant.

Sort of the whole point, isn't it?
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:18 PM   #147
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i'm sorry, but i can't not post some of this from my favorite pro-war atheist:

[q]Actually, the more he goes in one direction, the more he may find it is Mormons who are developing reservations about him. There is already grumbling in the ranks about his statement that the Bible is the revealed word of God, an absurd belief that Mormons do not truly profess, because they feel it is lacking an even more absurd later revelation to Joseph Smith. There are also those who think that Romney's disowning of past Mormon polygamy is too opportunistic, since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does still offer the consolation prize of multiple wives in heaven (just like the sick dream of Mohamed Atta).

[...]

Romney does not understand the difference between deism and theism, nor does he know the first thing about the founding of the United States. Jefferson's Declaration may invoke a "Creator," but, as he went on to show in the battle over the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom, he and most of his peers did not believe in a god who intervened in human affairs or in a god who had sent a son for a human sacrifice. These easily ascertainable facts are reflected in the way that the U.S. Constitution does not make any mention of a superintendent deity and in the way that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention declined an offer (possibly sarcastic), even from Benjamin Franklin, that they resort to prayer to compose their differences.

Romney may throw a big chest and say that God should be "on our currency, in our pledge," and of course on our public land in this magic holiday season, but James Madison did not think that there should be chaplains opening the proceedings of Congress or even appointed as ministers in the U.S. armed forces. Trying to dodge around this, and to support his assertion that the founders were religious in the Christian sense, Romney drones on about a barely relevant moment of emotion in 1774 and comes up with the glib slogan that "freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom." Any fool can think of an example where freedom exists without religion—and even more easily of an instance where religion exists without (or in negation of) freedom.

This does not mean that freedom of religion is not as important as freedom from it, yet Romney makes himself absurd by saying that Mormons may not be asked about the tenets of their faith, lest this infringe the constitutional ban on a religious test for public office. Here is another failure of understanding on his part. He is not being told: Answer this question in the wrong way, and you become ineligible. He is being told: Your family is prominent in a notorious church that proselytizes its views in a famously aggressive manner. Are you only now deciding to make a secret of your beliefs? And if so, why? Would he expect a Scientologist to be able to avoid questions about L. Ron Hubbard? Does the governor of Massachusetts who publicly tried for mob applause by demanding that we "double Guantanamo" (whatever that meant) add that the detainees must not be asked what branch of Islam they favor?

If an atheist was running against him, would Romney make nothing of the fact? His stupid unease on this point is shown by his demagogic attack on the straw man "religion of secularism," when, actually, his main and most cynical critic is a moon-faced true believer and anti-Darwin pulpit-puncher from Arkansas who doesn't seem to know the difference between being born again and born yesterday.

According to the admittedly very contradictory scriptures of the New Testament, Jesus of Nazareth warned his disciples and followers that they should expect to be ridiculed and mocked for their faith. After all, how likely was it that God had decided to reveal himself to only a few illiterate peasants in a barbarous backwater? Those who elected to believe this stuff were quite rightly told to expect a hard time, and the expression "fool for God" or "fool for Christ" has been with us ever since. That concept has some dignity and nobility. Entirely lacking in dignity or nobility (or average integrity) is the well-heeled son of a gold-plated church who wants to assume the pained look of martyrdom only when he is asked if he actually believes what he says. A long time ago, Romney took the decision to be a fool for Joseph Smith, a convicted fraud and serial practitioner of statutory rape who at times made war on the United States and whose cult has been made to amend itself several times in order to be considered American at all. We do not require pious lectures on the American founding from such a man, and we are still waiting for some straight answers from him.
[/q]
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:41 PM   #148
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He said he shouldn't have to apologize for his religious beliefs yet he only said the word Mormon once. Why? Was that accidental?
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:26 PM   #149
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I liked what John Edwards said about it-that he would be a President of all, believers and non-believers the same and equally. After all that is what the President must do, he/she does not pick and choose who he/she is the President of and answers to. Maybe the atheists could cut Mitt's lawn and/or paint his house

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/1...in_america.php

Romney Spokesman Won't Say If Atheists Have Place In America
By Eric Kleefeld - December 7, 2007, 9:48AM

A spokesman for the Mitt Romney campaign is thus far refusing to say whether Romney sees any positive role in America for atheists and other non-believers, after Election Central inquired about the topic yesterday

It's a sign that Romney may be seeking to submerge evangelical distaste for Mormonism by uniting the two groups together in a wider culture war. Romney's speech has come under some criticism, even from conservatives like David Brooks and Ramesh Ponnuru, for positively mentioning many prominent religions but failing to include anything positive about atheists and agnostics.

Indeed, the only mentions of non-believers were very much negative. "It is as if they're intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They're wrong," Romney said, being met by applause from the audience.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:08 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


Irrelevant.

Irrelevant.

Sort of the whole point, isn't it?
It must be very easy for you to segment your life into boxes. The sum total of who we are is not irrelevant. We are who we are, and our politics reflects that, and for better or worse, for many of us, our faith reflects and informs our values, the decisions we make daily.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:16 PM   #151
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I'm not saying the total sum of who we are. I'm talking about as a politician. How did you misconstrue that?
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:18 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


It must be very easy for you to segment your life into boxes. The sum total of who we are is not irrelevant. We are who we are, and our politics reflects that, and for better or worse, for many of us, our faith reflects and informs our values, the decisions we make daily.
What are you talking about? How was that post about segmenting your life into boxes?

Yes your faith reflects and informs our values, no one has denied this. But when your FAITH crosses the line of other people's rights, that's when it's your personal faith and no longer is part of the political process.

Use your moral compass to inform your decision on torture, war, etc.

But if your "moral" compass tells you that this person can't have the same rights as you, guess what it's no longer valid.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:34 PM   #153
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


What are you talking about? How was that post about segmenting your life into boxes?
Phillyfan said: "Everyone should vote. But a person's religious views should have nothing to do with it. Nothing at all." This perspective has been shared on this board before, the idea being, "leave your faith outside the voting booth." My whole point is, you can't, and telling people to do so, is both naive and insulting.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:37 PM   #154
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Yeah I think you thurouly misunderstood him...
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:39 PM   #155
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We're voting to elect a person to perform the job of President.

If you own a company and are hiring a person to do a job, does religion have anything to do with that? Aren't you merely looking for the person who can best perform the job? When you go to interview them are you thinking about your religious beliefs and/or theirs? After all, like Mitt says-he isn't running for Pastor In Chief.

You can't ask an interviewee about their religion-and there are reasons for that. I want a good and decent and honest and intelligent person to do the job of President, and that does not require religion. I want a competent person-neither does that. Do I like someone who has faith and is humble about that faith and has it in a certain perspective and is motivated to help the less fortunate because of it ? Yes.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:46 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
personally, i don't actually care if kids sing Christmas carols in school. i don't care if there's a nativity scene in a public square. i do think that some people can get a little obnoxious about this stuff, though i full understand where they are coming from. i don't think many Christians realize just how unimportant religion is in the lives of so many people, and also how it isn't an all-encompassing source of self-identity for many people, and how nervous people get when talk shifts to how stuff that's nearly totally subjective and individual and personal take on some cosmic objective reality in the mind of the believer.
I fully agree. I think we really need to stop getting so offended over every little thing, especially since, most of the time, many people likely mean no offense with their holiday greetings and decorations and whatever else.

But Christians really do need to put themselves in the other's shoes for a moment. If the situation were reversed, you KNOW there would be many a Christian demanding their equal time in the sun. So they might want to at the very least keep that in mind when issues of religion and its place in society come up.

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
ETA: this thread really astounds me in its utter disregard for people of faith -- who constitute the vast, vast majority of people in this country. You realize that you're disregarding the deeply felt perspectives and beliefs of about 95% of American citizens, right? Regardless of whether they're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.
Uh...I'm quite sure everybody here has a respect for those of faith, no matter who they are. I know I do. Like I've said many times before, I don't give a flying frisbee what religion you follow. If your faith makes you happy and helps to fulfill your life, wonderful! I'm happy for you, and I hope it continues to be a great asset to your life.

All I ask is that everybody, religious or not, show respect towards those of differing beliefs. Do not try and force your religious views on anybody else. After all, you wouldn't want it done to you, right? And this is why religion and law should remain separate. History has shown that when religion of any kind and law intertwine, it doesn't work out well. Hell, the founders of this country came from an area where they saw the results of religion/law blending. They didn't like it, which is why they wanted a new start.

BVS's last post here about faith and values is absolutely right.

As for that recent quote from Romney...lovely. It's so true-he wants respect when it comes to his faith, and he should have it. But then he should show respect in return.

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Old 12-07-2007, 06:03 PM   #157
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Speaking from the hell bent secular Europe, at least here in Germany no one cares the least bit about "Frohe Weihnachten" (Merry Christmas), nativity plays or any other Christian elements of the Christmas holidays.

I really don't understand what's the problem of those people.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:04 PM   #158
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So, how much will this speech help Romney in the primaries?

Presumably most of his existing supporters were delighted with his performance. But I'm rather doubtful that it will stop evangelical conservatives from increasingly gravitating towards Huckabee. And I don't really see conservatives who lean towards Giuliani or McCain switching their allegiance to Romney over this speech.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:11 PM   #159
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They just had a thing on the news about how Huckabee is gaining even more support. I agree with you, yolland, I really don't think this speech helped Romney branch out beyond his existing fanbase. It's caused a bit too much controversy for that.

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Old 12-07-2007, 06:18 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

Uh...I'm quite sure everybody here has a respect for those of faith, no matter who they are.
Quoth Irvine a few pages back:
"the white evangelical Protestant 'base' has far, far more in common with the 'evildoers' than they yet know."

Quothing BVS on page one:
"I always have to laugh when someone uses religion and deversity in the same sentence."

Quoth Irvine a few pages back:
"we're the laughingstock of the rest of the world. let's get out of the 11th century."

Quoth Melon a few pages back:
"'people of faith' has become a loaded term for 'reactionary zealot.'"

Respect is a two-way street...
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