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Old 12-06-2007, 03:29 PM   #21
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Can't believe people consider this guy a possible President.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:31 PM   #22
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How are Mormons victims of prejudice people? If they're judged for being Mormon or denied basic rights for being Mormon, that's wrong. However, if someone disagrees with their views, that doesn't make them prejudice. I think there's a ton of people who fall into this category.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
How are Mormons victims of prejudice people? If they're judged for being Mormon or denied basic rights for being Mormon, that's wrong. However, if someone disagrees with their views, that doesn't make them prejudice. I think there's a ton of people who fall into this category.
We've had people in this forum state, completely seriously, that white Christian males are very prejudiced against.

So, anything's possible.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:50 PM   #24
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Quote:

Simply a superb speech. A couple of my favorite lines from the complete text.

Quote:
"It is important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America, we share a common creed of moral convictions.



Quote:
...in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They are wrong.
"The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation 'Under God' and in God, we do indeed trust.


Exactly the point I've attempted to make in various FYM threads.

Quote:
I have visited many of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe. They are so inspired … so grand … so empty. Raised up over generations, long ago, so many of the cathedrals now stand as the postcard backdrop to societies just too busy or too 'enlightened' to venture inside and kneel in prayer.
But what if these exact words were said by a Muslim?
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:01 PM   #25
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Would a Muslim be running in the GOP primaries??


It seems this speech may accomplish the goals of bumping him up a few percentage points - in some of the GOP primaries.

That plus his billions could make the GOP race interesting.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:06 PM   #26
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and as for Muslims

they are part of the three great religions?

that all claim some would-be child murderer to be at the root of their faith



G-d
"deep - to prove your love for me -
murder your son."


deep
"G-d, No, I will not kill my son,
I could love you if you did not ask me to murder."
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:04 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Would a Muslim be running in the GOP primaries??


if said Muslim just switched a few words around, and was all shiney and white and male, then ... yes.

the white evangelical Protestant "base" has far, far more in common with the "evildoers" than they yet know, and both have a common enemy -- the secularists.
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:46 PM   #28
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I don't even know where to begin with this speech...it really irritated me.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:00 PM   #29
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Mitt has probably had this speech ready to go since Day 1 of his campaign. It goes to show how much he values an Iowa win and a piggyback into NH and beyond. So he had better win Iowa.

But I think he only helped himself today. Good speech. Good strategy.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:10 PM   #30
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Today I was thinking about what it would be like to hear Stephen Harper make a speech like this. He'd be the laughingstock of the nation. It is amazing how we can be so close and yet so far apart, sitting right next to each other.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:11 PM   #31
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Probably the right strategy for the GOP nomination.

But a horrible speech from an independent standpoint.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:26 PM   #32
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Independents don't have some sense of natural law?
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But what if these exact words were said by a Muslim?
I'd say he was a plagiarist.

But, quoting another line from Romney's speech.
Quote:
Perhaps the most important question to ask a person of faith who seeks a political office, is this: does he share these American values: the equality of human kind, the obligation to serve one another, and a steadfast commitment to liberty?
If an American of Muslim faith can answer these questions in the affirmative, what makes you think I'd somehow object if he said the other stuff?

What would you think about Romney's exact words being said by a Muslim?
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:28 PM   #34
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Originally posted by INDY500

I'd say he was a plagiarist.

But, quoting another line from Romney's speech.

If an American of Muslim faith can answer these questions in the affirmative, what makes you think I'd somehow object if he said the other stuff?

What would you think about Romney's exact words being said by a Muslim?
LOL. The plagiarist line is funny.

But I think his point is about the religious stuff. What if a Muslim said all the same stuff about his own religion?
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:35 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Quote:
Perhaps the most important question to ask a person of faith who seeks a political office, is this: does he share these American values: the equality of human kind, the obligation to serve one another, and a steadfast commitment to liberty?
If an American of Muslim faith can answer these questions in the affirmative, what makes you think I'd somehow object if he said the other stuff?

What would you think about Romney's exact words being said by a Muslim?
But Romney is a liar. Romney doesn't want equality. And it's laughable that some of you fall for that.

My point is that Romney mention not taking religion about of the public square. He didn't say the cross he said religion, so would you be as excited about this speech if a Muslim said this? Be honest.

I mean he should be able to put his religion in the public square as well, and you should be just as excited.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White
Independents don't have some sense of natural law?
Are you saying natural law = religion?
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:39 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White
Independents don't have some sense of natural law?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:39 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Probably the right strategy for the GOP nomination.

But a horrible speech from an independent standpoint.
Out of curiosity, have you ever read the JFK, in who's footsteps Romney is walking here, speech on his faith in 1960?

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/40/story_4080_1.html

In regard to today's speech, are you disagreeing with the timing or politics of this, Romney's tone or just religious messages delivered by public officials in general?
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:43 PM   #39
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Originally posted by INDY500
Out of curiosity, have you ever read the JFK, in who's footsteps Romney is walking here, speech on his faith in 1960?
I have in fact.

Kennedy says:

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute."

Romney did not.
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:09 PM   #40
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While it was written before Romney gave his speech, there was a news analysis piece in TIME yesterday comparing Kennedy's situation to Romney's (coemgen already posted the complete text of it in Irvine's Romney thread).
Quote:
...Like Kennedy and his Catholics, Romney presumably has a lock on the Mormon vote. But that bloc is much smaller, perhaps five or six million strong. And instead of being concentrated in swing states, Mormons reside largely in intermountain states that for the most part are already solidly Republican. In the key states where Romney faces an early test, he isn't likely to find many Mormons, no matter what he says on Thursday.

Then there are the differing thresholds. For one thing, Kennedy needed to lower the fears of Vatican control of American policy, so he could flatly state that he would not be taking orders from Rome and that his faith was a private matter. Romney at a minimum needs to do that—to say that even though Mormons believe that the head of their church is a prophet who receives God's living word, he would not be taking orders from Salt Lake City—but must do more. Kennedy could wall off his private beliefs from his public policy and be fine, since Democrats especially were happy to keep the two apart. But Romney is in—let's not forget—a Republican primary fight, where base voters want to know that your faith informs your policy. It's almost a disqualifier to say it has no real influence on you.

Kennedy and his team thought the problem they faced was ignorance, which could be addressed by educating voters. But Evangelicals believe Mormonism is a faith that views the Bible as requiring revision, and that when Romney says Christ is his Saviour, he doesn't mean it the same way evangelicals do. Those aren't misunderstandings, they are real differences of faith. As a Romney-backing Evangelical told me in October, "Some of my people—a lot of them—are just never going to go there."

And that brings up another crucial difference between Romney's predicament and Kennedy's. You could call it the fervor gap. Like the Southern Baptists, Mormons are a professing religion: they want to spread the word, win converts, save souls. This isn't a problem for a lot of Americans. But it is a problem for many conservative Christians. Many of them believe that if the G.O.P. nominates Romney—much less if the country elects him as President—Mormons will gain a stronger hand in the all-important business of saving souls. To them, the stakes of that struggle are as great or greater than any fight about a political office.
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