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Old 12-09-2007, 02:41 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



why on earth are Republican candidates asked if they believe every word of the Bible? is this a remotely relevant question?
Good question, I wish someone would have spoken up in the CNN debate and mentioned that the Constitution expicitly forbids religious tests. Why did CNN feel they had to include a question for Republican candidates asked in a such mocking tone by someone that looked like a cross between Eminem and the Unibomber?

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an America that has traditionally ascribed equal unimportance to all faiths, and has thusly been able to all all those of all faiths to practice as they see fit. this is how it has always worked.
Well, I'll end with agreeing with you here. America is at it's finest when we strike a balance between excessive religious influence and excessive secularism, not just tolerating each others faiths (or lack of), but respecting them.
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:55 PM   #322
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Originally posted by Irvine511

i can't wait till the Catholics take over and we're required to pray to Mary every morning before school and the president will end his speeches with, "God bless the United States, and most especially our holy father in Rome."
Romney agrees with your sarcasm

Quote:
"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes president he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:04 PM   #323
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Did someone miss the part when he said seculars are wrong?
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:10 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White


Romney agrees with your sarcasm



i suppose he need the prayers because he's not going to get my (agnostic) vote, and he doesn't seem to want it anyway.

i wonder, as an agnostic, should i get 3/5ths of the vote? should i be allowed to own property?
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Old 12-09-2007, 07:25 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
no one wants government officials to be avowed atheists. nor do we want it to be a requirement that they are all White Evangelical Protestants. i'm still scratching my head at the inability of intelligent posters to realize that the maintenance of the separation of church and state does not in any way mean that "people of faith" (whatever that actually means) don't run for office. it DOES mean that they realize that The Bible has nothing to say on the pressing issues of the day -- taxes, war, abortion, torture, detainment, etc -- and that to invoke God as some sort of justification for a policy or position is intellectually bogus, and as i said before, it's really immature.
Exactly. Pretty simple.

Religion in regards to our history is fascinating stuff. It has affected our history. I'm all for keeping all aspects of our history intact as good learning sources. I'm not religious and yet I'm really not all that bothered by things like "In God We Trust" on our money (though Christians would do well to remember when and why that was added)-it's the typical, "Don't like it, don't look" belief I hold there .

However, Irvine's post is right. Religion and law should stay separate, not just to protect the non-religious, but to protect the religious as well. Christians wouldn't want a Muslim president using their religion to enforce the laws, so they should not be doing it to anyone else.

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Originally posted by Bluer White
No one has ever won Iowa courting the atheist/agnostic vote.
Not so far. But who's to say that won't change? There are those in Iowa who would be fine with a non-religious president. Keep in mind Iowa also tends to lean Democratic as well, and the particular Democratic candidates running this year seem more open to those of other faiths or of no faith than many of the Republican candidates currently running.

Also, BonosSaint... . Excellent posts from you.

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Old 12-09-2007, 07:46 PM   #326
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

He didn't mention Pantheists either. So I guess volcano worshippers have no place in "Romney's America" either.
He didn't go out of his way to say they're wrong either, like he did with athiests and agnostics.
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Old 12-09-2007, 07:50 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

He didn't mention Pantheists either. So I guess volcano worshippers have no place in "Romney's America" either.
Wouldn't they fall under his generic "people of faith" or people of religion?
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:13 PM   #328
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Originally posted by INDY500


The God on our money, monuments and to which we swear oaths. The God of public religion, Creation and providence.
So it's important we keep the "shout-outs" to God, that we pay the "proper respect", tip our hats to God so to speak? Certainly as a Christian yourself, you realize how little value this type of lip service is to God.

It seems that when we were (supposedly) more of a Christian nation is when we outright stole the land of the Native Americans and enslaved an entire race of people. A lot of good our supposedly more "Christian" nature did us then. . .
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:11 PM   #329
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http://michaelmedved.townhall.com/co...us_and_slavery

http://michaelmedved.townhall.com/co...tive_americans
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:20 PM   #330
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Uh ... wow.
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:21 PM   #331
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

Keep in mind Iowa also tends to lean Democratic as well,
True although Bush did win it narrowly in 2004 by 10,000 votes.
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:22 PM   #332
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you know what's funny?

i've read these before.

but, as you say, Slavery and the Native American Genocide are exactly What Jesus Would Do.

after all, no one else matters in Western Civilization, right?
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:25 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


It seems that when we were (supposedly) more of a Christian nation is when we outright stole the land of the Native Americans and enslaved an entire race of people. A lot of good our supposedly more "Christian" nature did us then. . .


come on Sean, don't you see?

sure, slavery was bad and all, but it got your people out of the jungle and gave them Jesus. none of that ungodly animal worship. after all, Africa is where it is today because of a lack of Jesus. if they had more Jesus, then there'd be more food and stuff.

surely that's worth 50m in lives?
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Old 12-09-2007, 10:29 PM   #334
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[q]It was a pitch designed to say that whatever doctrinal differences Mormons have with mainstream Christians, they are trivial compared with the war against secularism.

So we were told, rather baldly: “Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom . . . Freedom and religion endure together or perish alone.” Of course freedom and religion can go together. But freedom requires religion? There are many free, secular societies where this doesn’t seem an exhaustive explanation. And while freedom of conscience can indeed be defended by religious doctrine – just read your John Locke or Second Vatican Council – it has also in history been persecuted and repressed by religion. Why were Locke and the second council even necessary?

And then you noticed that Romney’s embrace of pluralism does not actually include atheists or agnostics or those with no faith at all. This was not a minor oversight. In fact those who want to preserve a secular hue to public debates were given no quarter: “It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They are wrong.”

Romney, moreover, explicitly stated a core religious doctrine of his: “There is one fundamental question about which I often am asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the saviour of mankind.” If his point were to say that it is irrelevant what your religion is when you run for president, merely that you have a religion, then why this explicit statement? It tells his audience that he is not a Jew or a Muslim.

In his famous 1960 speech to the Houston ministers, John F Kennedy issued no such theological credo. And the explanation for Romney’s doing so is pretty simple: he wants the political benefit of being a Christian without the political cost of being a Mormon “Christian”. The speech was therefore a purely political manoeuvre, as is almost everything that comes out of Romney’s mouth. In order for a Mormon to win over the Christian right, he has to unite with them against a common foe: the religion of secularism.

To do that, he needs to have a broad public embrace of Christ, but not of the actual doctrines of his own church. Recall that Romney is not just a Mormon but has served as a bishop, and for nine years was a stake president – a position of considerable authority and power within his denomination. He knows the doctrines as well as anyone, but he will only explain that part of them that reassures the Christian right.

Will they be reassured? That remains to be seen. By touting active faith as the prerequisite for American public life, Romney appeals to those who see religion primarily as a benign force in American culture. He effectively says to the Christianist right: I’m with you on abortion (even though he long wasn’t), on gay rights (even though he once claimed he’d be more pro-gay in the Senate than Ted Kennedy) and in favour of appointing justices who would get out of the way of Christian majoritarianism. So forget about our theological differences. What matters is that someone believes in something and advances your political agenda.

Romney, it should be remembered, is not the first Mormon to run for president. That distinction is awarded to the founder of Mormonism himself, Joseph Smith Jr, who ran in 1844 on an abolitionist platform and in defence of the rights of religious minorities. Mormon political history has long been strongly secularist in this respect – because Mormons were once a sect brutally persecuted by majority Christians.

But in that campaign, Smith coined a term that strangely resonates today. “There is not a nation or a dynasty now occupying the earth which acknowledges almighty God as their lawgiver,” Smith told the Neighbor newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois. “I go emphatically, virtuously and humanely, for a theodemocracy, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness.”

Theodemocracy: the blending of government with a universally Christian populace in which faith is the prerequisite of public office. This is the vision of America that Romney is proposing. He has behind him the power brokers of the Protestant right, the theocons of the Catholic right, the Mormon church and the vested interests of a Republican party elite that, in the wake of George W Bush, wants to extend the theodemocratic principles of an antisecular movement.

Romney has in front of him all those – believers and nonbelievers – who feel that too overt a religious identity in the public square is a dangerous tyranny of the majority, and the true believers whose faith is not instrumental to anything but itself.

And that’s why, in my view, what Romney represents is not quite as benign as he makes it out to be. I would have had no qualms in supporting a Mormon for the presidency, as long as he vows to represent people of all faiths and none. But Romney decided against that. That matters. It is veiling intolerance under the guise of tolerance. [/q]
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Old 12-10-2007, 02:31 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
True although Bush did win it narrowly in 2004 by 10,000 votes.
Which really baffles me to no end, but then again, the fact that any state voted for that guy again in 2004 confuses me.

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Old 12-10-2007, 11:11 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




you know what's funny?

i've read these before.

He had you at "open-minded students of our history ought to feel more guilt than pride" didn't he?
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Old 12-10-2007, 12:24 PM   #337
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Originally posted by INDY500


He had you at "open-minded students of our history ought to feel more guilt than pride" didn't he?


i'm a sucker for genocidal apologia.

and in Medved's world, where there's no nuance, one must choose as if it's all Sophie's Choice: EIZER YOU FEEHL ZEE GUILT OR ZEE PRIDE! CHOOZ VUHN! ZEE OZTHER VEE VILL DROWN!
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:36 PM   #338
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I love how you Americans impersonate the German accent.

But I especially love Conan O' Brien doing Schwarzenegger.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:58 PM   #339
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I love how you Americans impersonate the German accent.


i promise you, every time i substitute a "Th" with a "Zee," it's done with love.

i have visited your country half a dozen times and have loved every inch of it.
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Old 12-10-2007, 05:10 PM   #340
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No worries, my marketing teacher is talking exactly the way you wrote there. And even worse, he is speaking in German grammar.
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