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Old 12-08-2007, 07:13 PM   #201
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You don't seem to understand. It's not about being religious in your life. It's about religion in policy.

Bono's never attempted to alienate groups of people in his own country due to their religious views.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:14 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
And what did Adam Clayton say about comparing or combining music and politics in Rattle And Hum.
That it's OK to write politics into music?

Again, not even remotely relevant to the argument.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:20 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


It doesn't-talking about one's faith in and of itself is never bad. What bothers me is when they try and push their faith onto others.



Read answer above.



First off, spiritual force-well, that's universal. That could mean anything.

Second, there's a bit of a difference between someone claiming they were spiritually inspired to create music that I can CHOOSE whether or not to listen to and somebody who may possibly be running this country claiming to be inspired to make laws based on what their religion says.



You're absolutely right, it doesn't always mean that. Unfortunately, I think there's a few politicians in this election that don't seem to show much respect for those who aren't of their faith.

Angela
Well, how is Romney pushing his faith on anyone with this speach any more so than U2 is pushing their faith on anyone with a song?

I think its rather obvious what the Edge is speaking of on the Unforgettable Fire documentary.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:22 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
So I take it you would not vote for Bono to be Mayor of Dublin one day if you were a Dubliner?
Somehow I get the feeling Bono wouldn't use his faith to start wars or ban gay marriage or something along that line, so I'd trust him to run a place more than I would somebody like Romney.

We're not "hostile" or "afraid" of religion at all. Some of us here DO belong to various faiths, are religious to varying degrees. We just firmly believe in keeping one's faith out of the law-making process. It's really not that difficult to understand.

Angela
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:26 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
You don't seem to understand. It's not about being religious in your life. It's about religion in policy.

Bono's never attempted to alienate groups of people in his own country due to their religious views.
And how do you know that Romney is attempting to alienate groups of people in his own country due to their religious views with this speech? I don't think the goal of this speech was to alienate anyone. Its rather easy to take what someone says and claim it means their intolerant of people with certain views.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:27 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Well, how is Romney pushing his faith on anyone with this speach any more so than U2 is pushing their faith on anyone with a song?
Well, let's see, the fact that he seems to exclude anyone who is non-religious, the fact that he seems to indicate that having faith is of some importance when it comes to dealing with issues facing this country... He can't put any of that into practice now, because he isn't president. But if he were to be, he's basically stating now that he would use religion as a means to decide the laws of this country.

Once again, I can turn off a song that is overly religious if I don't like it. I cannot do that with a president who uses religion to enforce laws. What they do will affect me. Therefore, it's a bit more important.

Besides that, U2 has more of a tendency to speak in universal terms and does not exclude anybody with their more spiritual/religious songs.

Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
I think its rather obvious what the Edge is speaking of on the Unforgettable Fire documentary.
I'd have to watch it again to see what all you're referring to. But once again, there is a difference between feeling inspired to create some sort of art based on spiritual feelings, art which you have a choice as to whether or not you want to look at/listen to/whatever, and running an entire country and implementing laws based on spiritual feelings, laws which will have an effect on both those who share the leader's faith and those who do not..

Angela
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:33 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


Somehow I get the feeling Bono wouldn't use his faith to start wars or ban gay marriage or something along that line, so I'd trust him to run a place more than I would somebody like Romney.

We're not "hostile" or "afraid" of religion at all. Some of us here DO belong to various faiths, are religious to varying degrees. We just firmly believe in keeping one's faith out of the law-making process. It's really not that difficult to understand.

Angela
When did Romney use his faith as a justification to start a war or ban gay marriage?

Can you honestly say that no politician is ever impacted by their religion or where ever they get their sense of morality or other beliefs when making policy? Plus, how would you ever be able to objectively determine that independent of what the candidate actually says?

When it comes to this, is Jimmy Carter really any different from Mitt Romney or George Bush?
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:43 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
When did Romney use his faith as a justification to start a war or ban gay marriage?
1, I was saying "someone like" Romney-somebody who has beliefs similar to his could do, and has done, things like that (Bush has certainly used his faith as a means to justify those sorts of issues, after all).

2, he hasn't started either of those things, but he sure supports them. And I feel he would likely continue to support them should he become president. The question then is whether or not he'd enact laws based on his beliefs in regards to those issues. If his speech is any indication, I'd say he would.

Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Can you honestly say that no politician is ever impacted by their religion or where ever they get their sense of morality or other beliefs when making policy? Plus, how would you ever be able to objectively determine that independent of what the candidate actually says?
I know full well many politicians are impacted by their religion when making policy. What we're saying is that that needs to stop. They can use their faith to determine their own personal views, but when it comes to making laws, they have to look beyond that and realize that what they do will impact people who may very well not be of their faith, and judge whether or not what they decide to do is fair and works for the country as a whole or not.

As for how to determine it, well, I guess I'd say I'd pay attention to their actions. If I see a pattern of their religion influencing their law-making process, I'm going to determine that this is a common thing with them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
When it comes to this, is Jimmy Carter really any different from Mitt Romney or George Bush?
I wasn't alive when Jimmy was president, so I can't comment on how much his religion influenced his policy-making. I know it was a factor, as I've heard him reference his faith in the past in the few things I've observed regarding him, but to what extent, I'm not sure.

Angela
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:48 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


Well, how is Romney pushing his faith on anyone with this speach any more so than U2 is pushing their faith on anyone with a song?

I think its rather obvious what the Edge is speaking of on the Unforgettable Fire documentary.
U2's not pushing their faith on anyone. It's music. You don't have to listen.

It's unbelievable to me that you don't grasp this.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:50 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


So I take it you would not vote for Bono to be Mayor of Dublin one day if you were a Dubliner? It seems strange to be so hostile and afraid of something that your entertained by despite the obvious distinction between music and politics. If anything, U2 are certainly believers in combining all three, music, religion, and politics.
You really seem to be missing the point.
Bono's religion wouldn't matter to me if he were running, it would be his platform. Now if part of his platform contained legislation that was purely religious and not for the best of Dublin, then hell no I wouldn't vote for him.

If his religion said mustaches are an abomination so he was going to move to ban mustaches, this is a purely religious view and has no part in politics. Just like an ammendment to ban gay marriage is a purely religious view and has no part in our politics.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:51 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
And how do you know that Romney is attempting to alienate groups of people in his own country due to their religious views with this speech? I don't think the goal of this speech was to alienate anyone. Its rather easy to take what someone says and claim it means their intolerant of people with certain views.
Are you blind to the fact that the goal was to pander to the evangelicals and slam seculars?
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:53 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


When did Romney use his faith as a justification to start a war or ban gay marriage?

Can you honestly say that no politician is ever impacted by their religion or where ever they get their sense of morality or other beliefs when making policy? Plus, how would you ever be able to objectively determine that independent of what the candidate actually says?

When it comes to this, is Jimmy Carter really any different from Mitt Romney or George Bush?
He's against gay marriage. What other explanation could there be?
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:06 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


1, I was saying "someone like" Romney-somebody who has beliefs similar to his could do, and has done, things like that (Bush has certainly used his faith as a means to justify those sorts of issues, after all).

2, he hasn't started either of those things, but he sure supports them. And I feel he would likely continue to support them should he become president. The question then is whether or not he'd enact laws based on his beliefs in regards to those issues. If his speech is any indication, I'd say he would.



I know full well many politicians are impacted by their religion when making policy. What we're saying is that that needs to stop. They can use their faith to determine their own personal views, but when it comes to making laws, they have to look beyond that and realize that what they do will impact people who may very well not be of their faith, and judge whether or not what they decide to do is fair and works for the country as a whole or not.

As for how to determine it, well, I guess I'd say I'd pay attention to their actions. If I see a pattern of their religion influencing their law-making process, I'm going to determine that this is a common thing with them.



I wasn't alive when Jimmy was president, so I can't comment on how much his religion influenced his policy-making. I know it was a factor, as I've heard him reference his faith in the past in the few things I've observed regarding him, but to what extent, I'm not sure.

Angela
Where did Bush explicity say that he invaded Afghanistan or Iraq because his paster or his spiritual feelings told him too? There are certainly people who are not religious who support both of those policies as well. The same could be said about nearly every policy issue as well.

Regardless of what someone believes, your never really going to know to what degree those beliefs(religious or non-religious) impact their policy decisions. Its apart of who they are, and your unlikely to be able to fully seperate thoughts and idea's that originated somewhere back in the individuals upbringing, from how they make decisions today.
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:11 PM   #214
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


He's against gay marriage. What other explanation could there be?
Well, that would mean one would have to be religious to support a ban on gay marriage.

Did the USSR allow gay marriage?
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:13 PM   #215
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Was the USSR a democracy that claimed to give everyone equal rights?
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:15 PM   #216
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


Are you blind to the fact that the goal was to pander to the evangelicals and slam seculars?
Are you blind to the fact that many people who oppose Romney want people to believe that is what the speech is all about. Does he actually say in the speech that "seculars" are not Americans or are lower class citizens?
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:15 PM   #217
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Originally posted by Strongbow


Did the USSR allow gay marriage?
Wow, you're not very good at comparisons.
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:15 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Where did Bush explicity say that he invaded Afghanistan or Iraq because his paster or his spiritual feelings told him too?
Uhhhhhh...there's many instances out there where he's talked about God speaking to him in regards to these issues. He even alluded to this whole thing as a "holy war", or something similar to that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
There are certainly people who are not religious who support both of those policies as well. The same could be said about nearly every policy issue as well.
Yes, but they aren't the president and aren't the ones ulitmately responsible for allowing these issues to go forward. And their reasons for supporting them are entirely different from the issue at hand. We're talking about people of faith dictating laws. Those who aren't religious but still support those policies, we'd have to discuss the other factors that led them to supporting that stuff. And that's a whole other topic.

Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Regardless of what someone believes, your never really going to know to what degree those beliefs(religious or non-religious) impact their policy decisions. Its apart of who they are, and your unlikely to be able to fully seperate thoughts and idea's that originated somewhere back in the individuals upbringing, from how they make decisions today.
I disagree, I think you can definitely tell to what extent religion plays a role in what people do. Romney stated as much in his speech. He made it very clear that he was going to continue on the tradition of those leaders before him who've used faith to influence their political actions.

You're right that it's hard to separate one's beliefs from their actions. Again, the problem comes in when people who are unable to separate their particular religious views from their actions are running a country where there's a wide variety of belief systems.

Angela
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:18 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Are you blind to the fact that many people who oppose Romney want people to believe that is what the speech is all about. Does he actually say in the speech that "seculars" are not Americans or are lower class citizens?
What is it with you and "actually saying" or "explicitly saying?"

I don't have to read him say those exact words to know exactly what he means.
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:34 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


Are you blind to the fact that many people who oppose Romney want people to believe that is what the speech is all about. Does he actually say in the speech that "seculars" are not Americans or are lower class citizens?
What would you think if someone made a speech that had lines like this:

"It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America — the religion of Mormonism. They are wrong."
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