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#81 | |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,602
Local Time: 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Washington voted for Gay Civil Unions, it was called everything but marriage - all the same rights and benefits, by a margin of 52 -48. Aeon, Indy and people that think like them are not the ones that are preventing gays from having equal rights. If California and Maine had the same ballot as Washington, very good chance at least 2-3 per cent would have been swayed to vote the other way and gays would have equal protection. |
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#82 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Do you think it is possible, that society "thought it prudent" (as Melon would say) to incentivize marriage in order to encourage the survival and stability of the society? In other words, it is not that other relationships are necessarily denied anything, they are simply not incentivized. Therefore, there is no violation of any civil rights. If it is no longer prudent, as you seem to point out above, then perhaps you would contend the fair solution is just to remove the incentives? |
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#83 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
Posts: 11,786
Local Time: 08:56 PM
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Quote:
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#84 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Your solution would, however, change marriage from being seen as the bridge between generations and the ideal arrangement for the procreation and rearing of children, to just a legal affirmation of adult romance. |
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#85 | ||
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
Posts: 11,786
Local Time: 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Jest aside, there is Supreme Court precedent that marriage is more than "state privilege." Quote:
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#86 | |||
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 34,032
Local Time: 08:56 PM
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Quote:
what? where did i say this? you've surely put words in my mouth here. Quote:
yes, i absolutely thinks that society thinks it prudent to incentivize marriage, it encourages stability and provides the potential for an optimal environment to raise children. i think marriage is a good thing. i've been saying this over and over. but, yes, AEON, i, a homosexual, am DENIED access to these benefits on the basis of my sexual orientation. therefore, that becomes a violation of my civil rights. it's not that i have the civil right to get married, the government does not need to find me a spouse. but i should have the civil right to marry a person who also chooses me. as for fertility, that's entirely moot. we have infertile people who get married, and those who choose not to have children, as well as people who get married later in life. these relationships are surely granted the same privileges as anyone else who enters into the institution. Quote:
no, i have contended, and continually contend, that all gay people want is to be allowed into the same tent. stop putting words into my mouth and ascribing theories that i have not even come close to offering. |
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#87 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 07:56 PM
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AEON and INDY: Do either of you think allowing gay marriage to occur will somehow cause a problem with population shortage?
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#88 | |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 34,032
Local Time: 08:56 PM
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which i also pointed to, but AEON took my humoring the question and ran with it into a direction that was entirely disingenuous. Quote:
i look forward to your support of marriages not being granted until a couple produces a biological child belonging to the two parents. ![]() as such, i am denied, on the basis of an immutable characteristic that harms no one, barred from ever being considered for said "state interests." upon what grounds, INDY, is it not in the state's interest to provide Memphis and myself with the title of a marriage? if you do nothing else tonight, INDY, please answer me that. what is it that's so awful about us? |
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#89 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 05:56 PM
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If I weren't so lazy, or in the middle of trying not to spend $1000 to go see Steve's grandma turn 100 years old, I would do a search and find this exact same conversation with the exact same words and the exact same players from a few years ago. Good gravy. AEON and INDY will repeat their pointless justifications for fear and exclusion, using Jesus and children as shields, and the rest of us will grow impatient with them. Meanwhile, the world will spin forward, and this kind of thinking will fall out of favor.
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#90 | |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 07:56 PM
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Quote:
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#91 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
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That's all my husband and I have, a legal affirmation of romance.
And about, what is the figure now, 100 other benefits gay couples in the exact same situation don't have. |
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#92 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 34,032
Local Time: 08:56 PM
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time for bed. i look forward to answers tomorrow.
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#93 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 06:56 PM
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Quote:
* Definition of forward is not subject to debate, dissent or vote |
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#94 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 05:56 PM
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What about what Barney Frank said?
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#95 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
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#96 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:56 PM
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#97 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:56 PM
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Quote:
I've had a few hours to think about things, and I'm leaning toward entirely removing incentives for marriage. In the present state of affairs - it is time I accept that I live in a society that generally does not "think it is prudent" to encourage stable procreation and maintain that "bridge" between generations. Let’s just move to some sort of flat tax model and I’ll be happy. Leave marriage up to churches and cults or whatever group wants to perform the ceremony to mean whatever they want it to mean. The state should have no role in either granting, recognizing, or denying marriages. In the end, I believe marriage is not a civil right, but a God ordained responsibility. The last thing I want – is the state messing with it. I think of the scene in “Braveheart” when William Walllace got married in secret. It helped me understand that I need not worry - marriage will survive with or without the government. Irvine, you mentioned the need to limit government’s role in marriage – how will that work for you? |
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#98 |
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 07:56 PM
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Which is all well and good, but will never get implemented. So, knowing that marriage will remain in its state, are you still on the side of preventing gay marriage simply because you don't want regular marriage either?
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#99 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 06:56 PM
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Quote:
I don't say that to be mean or to suggest that the inability to reproduce in any way speaks to the individual worth of a person. It most certainly does not, but it does illustrate why many feel gender -- "male" and "female," "husband" and "wife" -- is not insignificant in defining marriage the way ethnicity, religious creed, et cetera, ultimately is. Now I know the meme that says gender roles are interchangeable goes all but unchallenged in feminist theory, postmodern philosophy, pop culture and in liberal circles today, but the majority of Americans remain very skeptical of the idea. And 30 some times that skepticism has been reflected at voting booths in every region of the country. |
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#100 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 08:56 PM
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Just an observation--and an obvious one at that--people tend to support a status quo when they benefit by it and are in some way validated and honored by it. They are protective of it. Protection of status seems to be hardwired. The dirty side of that is that it allows them to see those who are not in the status quo as "other" to be diminished in some way, to be limited in ways they would never seek to limit themselves, to define others in ways they would never accept being defined, to close doors to others that have always been opened to them, to use difference as a weapon to exclude whatever justification they give themselves. Or to put it simply, "I am worthy. You are not."
__________________Gay marriage, women's rights, racism, for sure. But it extends throughout all facets of society--right and left--jockeying for position, to make sure you are included in that better realm (however you define it) and it doesn't feel as sweet unless someone is excluded. "I am better for what I am. I don't have to worry so much about what I do." That doesn't include everyone, but that lowest common denominator is certainly prevalent. |
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