equality blooms with spring, pt. II

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Both/and. The latter is a direct connection to (and result of) the former.

You need to get your variables straight, here. Assume that the effect of being fatherless on the child is one equation, and the effect of the absent father on the mother, which then impacts the son is another equation. What I'm saying is that I've read several studies saying that the latter equation is more damaging to the child than the former. It's not the absence of the father that's most damaging, it's the way his absence impacts the mother economically and emotionally that causes greater damage.


But...red herring.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

great. now we both know that you've never answered my question because you "don't need to."

I'm not talking about lesbian moms, or about their sons. I'm talking about the need for fathers. Which was a question you asked.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

It's not the absence of the father that's most damaging, it's the way his absence impacts the mother economically and emotionally that causes greater damage.

which constitutes the bulk of what Obama was saying.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I'm not talking about lesbian moms, or about their sons. I'm talking about the need for fathers. Which was a question you asked.

no -- the question i asked was what specific parenting techniques can a father perform that a mother never, ever could. i.e., if Steve and Martha were to become parents, what could Steve, and only Steve, do, that Martha never, ever could?

you said that fathers can't have babies. fine. but that's not parenting.

i absolutely agree that children are harmed by absent fathers. i agree that a mother's ability to parent often goes down with an absent father. i agree that children do best -- usually -- with two parents (assuming that two parents are fit to parent).

however, none of this is tied to essential gender characteristics.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by BVS

You ask who cares what you believe?

The statistics don't lie, BVS. Statistically speaking, cohabitation is on the rise. Statistically speaking, people are having children later in life. Statistically speaking, the primary reason more and more people are getting married is not because of sexual activity, or even because of a relationship. It's all to do with settling down. We don't need to discuss my beliefs on the matter; we can discuss the facts. It's far more relevant, don't you think?

Complete and utter bullshit!!!

Would you like the names and telephone numbers of my friends who adopted and experienced this? They might be able to give you some life experience.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

which constitutes the bulk of what Obama was saying.

Seriously?

"It's up to us - as fathers and parents - to instill this ethic of excellence in our children. It's up to us to say to our daughters, don't ever let images on TV tell you what you are worth, because I expect you to dream without limit and reach for those goals. It's up to us to tell our sons, those songs on the radio may glorify violence, but in my house we live glory to achievement, self respect, and hard work. It's up to us to set these high expectations. And that means meeting those expectations ourselves. That means setting examples of excellence in our own lives."

You're right. It was just about dollars and cents.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

no -- the question i asked was what specific parenting techniques can a father perform that a mother never, ever could. i.e., if Steve and Martha were to become parents, what could Steve, and only Steve, do, that Martha never, ever could?

And the statistics have revealed the role that fathers play -- particularly with boys.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Would you like the names and telephone numbers of my friends who adopted and experienced this? They might be able to give you some life experience.

erm, BVS was adopted.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

And the statistics have revealed the role that fathers play -- particularly with boys.

you're the STING of gay marriage.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

The statistics don't lie, BVS. Statistically speaking, cohabitation is on the rise. Statistically speaking, people are having children later in life. Statistically speaking, the primary reason more and more people are getting married is not because of sexual activity, or even because of a relationship. It's all to do with settling down. We don't need to discuss my beliefs on the matter; we can discuss the facts. It's far more relevant, don't you think?

Did you even read the rest of my post? Or does being called out as a hypocrite hit too close to home?

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Would you like the names and telephone numbers of my friends who adopted and experienced this? They might be able to give you some life experience.

Life experience? Wow...

I am adopted and have been surrounded by those who are and have adopted all my life.

I'll refrain from posting some of the things that I really wanted to type.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

erm, BVS was adopted.

That's great. Many adoptive parents still have difficulty bonding with their kids, particularly those who adopt later-age kids, as several of my friends have done.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

That's great. Many adoptive parents still have difficulty bonding with their kids, particularly those who adopt later-age kids, as several of my friends have done.

and as we know, your experience trumps all?

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by BVS

Did you even read the rest of my post? Or does being called out as a hypocrite hit too close to home?

To be honest, I wasn't really sure what point you were making.

I am adopted and have been surrounded by those who are and have adopted all my life.

That's great. I have friends who have adopted and have really struggled, particularly since they chose to adopt kids who were older. It certainly doesn't negate your experience, but it doesn't negate my friends' either. It's certainly not worth calling my friends experience "complete and utter bullshit," as you did.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

and as we know, your experience trumps all?

No, but it sure doesn't make it less valid.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

That's great. I have friends who have adopted and have really struggled, particularly since they chose to adopt kids who were older. It certainly doesn't negate your experience, but it doesn't negate my friends' either. It's certainly not worth calling what my friends went through "complete and utter bullshit," as you did.

but it does negate your equally totalizing claims about what is and what isn't best for children.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

you're the STING of gay marriage.

No, I'm the STING of gender essentialism. There's a difference.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

No, but it sure doesn't make it less valid.

not less valid, but surely incomplete and not nearly enough to make sweeping statements about biology, sociology, and history.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

but it does negate your equally totalizing claims about what is and what isn't best for children.

Really? How so? When talking about adoption, I wasn't talking about the experience of the child -- I was talking about what parents go through.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

No, I'm the STING of gender essentialism. There's a difference.

i will concede this point.

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Seriously?

"It's up to us - as fathers and parents - to instill this ethic of excellence in our children. It's up to us to say to our daughters, don't ever let images on TV tell you what you are worth, because I expect you to dream without limit and reach for those goals. It's up to us to tell our sons, those songs on the radio may glorify violence, but in my house we live glory to achievement, self respect, and hard work. It's up to us to set these high expectations. And that means meeting those expectations ourselves. That means setting examples of excellence in our own lives."

You're right. It was just about dollars and cents.

And mothers can't tell their children these things? These are the specific domain of fathers? If that were the case, my kid would have been screwed.

Look, Obama's speech was great and all, but it's hardly the definitive, statistical mine that you're making it out to be. I just reread the speech, and here is the only part where he quotes statistics:

We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled — doubled — since we were children. We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves.

and there's not one thing in there that can't be explained by the mother being adversely impacted economically and emotionally, and that impact affecting her ability to parent effectively.