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#681 | ||
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
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Plato (427-348 B.C.E.) - The State as an Educational Entity, Family Control - Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society Quote:
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#682 |
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So what should a man do if his wife/partner dies and he's left to raise a daughter alone? Give her up for adoption? All of this silliness that men can't deal with female "issues" is one of the reasons that some parenting is messed up in the first place. I thought we were beyond that. That's part of the job of father-other than that I guess we should just allow gender selection for babies.
__________________Girls are looking to their fathers in these areas-it's one of the things that is key to shaping their self images and their relationships with males. To their fathers gay or straight. |
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#683 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
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![]() Melon, you are obviously a very bright and educated person. Certainly you know that appreciation for a philosopher (or a certain philosophy) does not mean that you must accept everything of the philosopher. It is unfortunate that you seem to throw out any philosophy that has even a hint of God in it – because that would eliminate your greatest Enlightenment philosophers that you claim to appreciate. It is a bit of an irony then, that I was an atheist when I started college at University of Arizona as a Philosophy/English Lit double major (which I eventually changed to MIS because I wanted a job), and it was the study of philosophy that actually led me to Christianity (it seemed the perfect synthesis of Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy – which is why I also like the writing of Philo). My point is – you seem to want to place me in this home grown Fundamentalist Christian box simply because I have some conservative views and happen to be a Christian (by the way – as I’ve posted earlier to your accusation of Fundamentalism – I am more in agreement with Narrative/Post-Liberal Theology). Believe it or not Melon, faith and reason are not enemies. |
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#684 | |
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Knock it off <>, that's really inappropriate. And you honestly think that Adam Lambert would not know that what he did on stage is not right when he's around kids? Then you shouldn't let Bono babysit your kids either, what with him being a married man and being on top of a young woman on stage and rolling around and such. Right? |
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#685 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
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I'm at work, so I don't think it appropriate to respond further until I get a free moment. But I think it's fairly safe to say that our vision of "God" is vastly different; mine molded from a 20th century American Catholic perspective and yours from an evangelical conservative Protestant POV. This alone should inform as to why the separation of church and state is prudent, as religious freedom, by definition, gives no priority to either set of beliefs, while they are clearly incompatible theologically. |
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#686 |
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#687 |
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#688 | ||||||||
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you're lovely and romantic, but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, nor does it have to do with the topics brought up in the thread. you're taking your experience and presenting it as the only true, authentic experience that can be had, and using that to, as you have in the past, slam families who are different from yours. yes, of course birthing a child is the core process of becoming a parent, BUT IT IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE THE ONLY WAY TO BECOME A PARENT, and just because some people are different from you that does not mean that their families are less sound, that their love for their children is less, that their children will not grow up as well as others, and that they are any less worthy of protection and recognition. Quote:
how are your "friends" who've adopted, who've done IVF, any different from a gay couple who might do the same? the've clearly easily and casually discounted the biological role that gender distinctiveness and determinsim plays in conception since science has let them circumvent these rules. do you look down on them as well? Quote:
it's controversial, nathan, because you have nothing to back any of this up. children need parents, children need same-sex role models, but nowhere does this mean that the same-sex role model MUST be the parent. in fact, many parents are shitty role models for their kids. the evidence, as we've pointed to you repeatedly, and which you repeatedly ignore, is that kids from same-sex households do every bit as well as kids from opposite-sex households, and that it's the presence of two parents and the quality of the parenting that determines how well a child does. how much longer are you going to keep insisting that this isn't the case when it is? "learning masculinity" and "learning femininity" are quaint and lovely notions, and i suppose that if i came from a background where i was taught that men are always and for ever one way and women are always and forever another way, and that women must submit to their husbands, then i suppose i might share your concerns. but i don't. it also begs the question -- if biology is destiny as you assert, then why do we need to be taught how to be a boy or a girl? shouldn't thousands of years of evolution have us hardwired? which is it? nature or nurture? you seem to want it both ways. men are always men and women are always women because one has a penis and one has a vagina, but if men don't have other men they'll get confused and become women. Freud was wrong, btw. and pulling out poppy icons like Freud or Obama aren't adding any credibility to your claims, nor do they count as evidence to support your assertions that children are harmed by same-sex parents. back it up, nathan. give us more than old wives tales. Quote:
you can speak for yourself, nathan, but it seems quite clear that you don't know many different kinds of families and appear to live in a fairly isolated clique. but this only becomes a controversial point when you assert -- and this has been your implication from the start -- that children are harmed by two mothers or two fathers. they aren't. they do just as well, and often better because gay parents tend to be very, very well prepared, they are older, more educated, have more income, and have thought long and hard about their decisions to be parents. all of these characteristics absolutely, always and in all ways, trump whatever gender essentialist notions you claim these children will lack. we have people on this board who have been raised by gay parents, and somehow, they managed to become sexually mature and confident adults without having an opposite-sexed parent walk them through things. Quote:
you still haven't answered my question. you've given us no answers. i'm still waiting. Quote:
i suppose that's what happens when you substitute your own subjective experiences for objective reality. Quote:
what are those values, nathan, and how are we disadvantaged when we have families that are cut from a slightly different cloth? in order to reinforce this "value" to these "core social structures" by implying that there's only one way to do things you're going to have to demonstrate how the alternative does harm to said "core social structures." so go for it. show us how children are harmed by two mommies and/or two daddies. Quote:
except that you haven't answered any of my initial questions. you've given us generalities, anecdotes, misunderstood Obama speeches, and a sloppy reference to Freud. have you got anything? or are you going to insist that how you did it is how it has to be? |
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#689 | ||
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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Fair enough, like you regarding the origins/foundation of my Christianity, I can sometimes jump to conclusions
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My vision of God originally formed outside of Christianity with Plato's book Phaedo, which led me to think - "Now that I'm convinced there is a God, what sort of God is it/he/she?" - which in turn led me to studying Christianity because if there was a God, that is what he would be like (Christ/Logos). In addition, if there was ever the perfect ideal /form/model of a man, it was Jesus (Man/Christ/Logos)...in my opinion, of course. Also, I have been reading more Catholic material lately. While I do attend what is generally considered a Protestant church - I also sneak away to Catholic Mass from time to time and pray the Rosary while I jog in the mornings. As I've posted numerous times, I consider my faith outside evangelicalism and I disagree with them on several theological issues. And I have l posted numerous times that I am also a huge supporter of the separation of church and state. |
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#690 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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#691 | |
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#692 |
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#693 | |
The Flower
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The OC....!!!!
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I'm kind wondering now if my son, a single father of a 10 month old baby girl, should just forget all of this taking responsibility stuff and simply give her to me or her other grandmother so we can properly raise her. He's already asking for advice on her first period and other female issues so he'll be prepared when it happens but who is he kidding, right? |
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#694 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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In my view, faith is not a blind leap into darkness, but a leap from the darkness into the light - and it takes reason to recognize the light as light.
When it comes to faith, Renaissance and Enlightenment philosophy identified there are three different aspects. The first aspect is fiducia - and this is the "supernatural" faith that Christians believe is the work of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, this is where many Christians stop - and where the critics such as A_Wanderer attack. The second aspect of faith is noticia - which simply means the faith has content, or information regarding it (for Christians, this would be the Gospels and the New Testament letters - for secular humanists maybe the writings of Paul Kurtz). The third aspect of faith is assensus - which is intellectual assent. This is similar to the question, "Do I believe that the Sun is mostly comprised of Hydrogen and Helium?" It is not a question that involves placing your personal trust in the answer, it simply means you use your mind to accept/reject the proposition based available evidence/information. This is why I say that faith and reason are not opposites. Everyone at some point exercises the noticia and assensus aspects of faith. |
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#695 |
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Light, dark, whatever. It's a blind leap nonetheless. Your "content" is a book some guys just wrote one day and claimed God was involved with, and I don't even know how the sun's composition influences your belief in God.
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#696 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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#697 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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#698 | |
Blue Crack Distributor
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Quote:
Also, to address comments made last night regarding psychological ramifications of this discussion, to take Baron-Cohen's statement regarding empathy and systemizing being hardwired into female and male brains, respectively, is a vast oversimplification, and furthermore, its application within this discussion doesn't fit. There are also problems with his theory of mind as it relates to autism anyway, but that's another discussion. Regarding the psychological community being too politically correct to publish information to the contrary that homosexual parenting is equal to that of heterosexual parenting, I'd have to wonder how well the person making this statement knows the ins and outs of the psychological research community. Believe me, every researcher is looking to make their mark on the psychological world, and if they had valid data showing that homosexual parenting is inferior to heterosexual parenting, it would be out there. Controversial and valid findings are a way to get your name out there, and for many, if not most researchers, that's a very desirable thing. |
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#699 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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If you seriously look back through your posts, it certainly seems apparent this is where your propositions will eventually terminate. |
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#700 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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In quantum mechanics, I agree. In psychology or sociology, I'm not so sure.
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